I live in Ventura, Ca which is only 20 miles north of BMW's design studio. The last several days I have seen a handful of camouflaged (wrapped in swirly plastic) i3's cruising around town. Kinda' look like Honda Elements.
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BMW i3
- Thread starter gregincal
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rolosrevenge
Dr. EVS
so basically the i3 really only works with the range extender if you are cruising on a flat highway once you run low on battery. If you are in hilly terrain or in the city with start/ stops and have a depleted battery then what? the 30hp motor is supposed to generate enough juice to push you around? I'm still waiting to see a review where someone got to drive it for a day, not an hour.
tommolog
Member
I'm waiting also. In fact I'm hoping to get one for a day to test this very thing. However I have talked to the i3 chief program manager Oliver Walter about this and he's assured me the range extender will keep the vehicle adequately charged for all but the most strenuous circumstances: think Pikes Peak.
The way it works is once the state of charge hits 20% the range extender turns on and maintains the 20% charge. If for a while you are driving under extreme conditions like up a long steep hill at 70mph the range extender will be at maximum output (25kW), so lets say you are using a continuous load of 30kW, you could continue doing that for about a half an hour before you started to get reduced power. That's a long time to be driving up a steep hill at high speed. Plus you could simply slow down a bit and cut back on the load if needed.
Also, you will have the ability to manually turn on the range extender once the state of charge is at 80% and it will maintain the 80% charge while you drive. I can see someone doing that if they know they will be driving up a mountain later in the trip when the range extender would have turned on. Of course you'll be using more gas, but you'll have the ability to drive up any mountain at any speed you want to for as long as necessary.
It's not perfect and it's no Model S, but for many people this will be a nice EV and with the range extender they can use it for journeys that aren't possible with other 'little battery' EV's, at least until there is an adequate number of DC quick charge stations everywhere.
Remember this isn't a Model S. The comparisons are ridiculous IMO. Tesla is doing something that nobody else is and what nobody else thought could be done, but Tesla alone isn't going to bring electric drive to the world. They are leading the charge and driving the industry for sure, but all electric vehicles out there have a place and a market and the more of them that get sold only validates what Tesla has been saying. People want electric cars, if we build them they will buy them!
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However, once the Volt battery runs low and it switches to hybrid operation it is in power-split mode with a direct mechanical link to the ring gear of the transmission most of the time the gas engine is running during low torque demand expressway and highway speeds of 40+ mph (according to GM's SAE papers). The Design News article you linked to gives a good description of the Volt powertrain but makes a common mistake by overly emphasizing 70 mph as the speed at which the parallel linkage occurs. For especially long and steep uphill grades the Volt has a Mountain Mode which reserves additional buffer charge in the battery.
Under high torque demand the Volt usually reverts back to generator mode and uses the battery and generator output to drive the large electric motor. Many people falsely assume the opposite -- they incorrectly assume the Volt reverts to a mechanical connection during hard acceleration and is normally acting as a generator. That's wrong.
I've included a link below to an Argonne labs report which measured the Volt's basic powertrain statistics. Some of the numbers seem a bit conservative compared to other numbers I have seen.
One interesting calculated result is that the Volt should be able to drive up a 6% grade at up to 87 mph on the battery alone and up to 99 mph when the battery reaches its minimum state if charge and the car switches to hybrid operation with the gas engine supplying power together with some buffer charge in the battery.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/pdfs/phev/2011_chevrolet_volt_fs.pdf
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surfingslovak
Member
This concern came up a few times before, and has been discussed at some length here and elsewhere. You might want to peruse an earlier TMC post on the topic, and also Tom's excellent blog post.
Hypothetical trip from San Diego to Julian
BMW i3 REx: A Hobbled Horse or a Galloping Thoroughbred?
It's worth noting that AC Propulsion engineered a range extender prototype for the 1st gen RAV4 EV, which was a much heavier vehicle than the i3, and after some experimentation, ended up using a 20 kW generator. This project was reportedly commissioned by Toyota.
Rav Long Ranger Hybridizing Trailer
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I was at the Frankfurt Motor Show for the last 2 days. I have a journalist pass, so I was able to get a ride in the i3 as a passenger.
BMW had various i3s there. Unfortunately I could not get behind the steering wheel, yet.
The design is truly unique, in-and outside. People will either love or hate it. This is no ordinary car and to my eyes it’s looks rather futuristic. The visibility is great, the turning cycle extremely small. Still it’s not a classic BMW handling machine. It’s just entirely different.
I was impressed by the acceleration. It’s no Tesla rival obviously. But you feel the lightweight concept. It’s much faster than a Volt, Leaf or Renault Zoe. Even a 220hp Golf GTI will have a hard time to follow this car up to 120 kph. For sure a lot of people will have fun with it. And I also liked the way the small engine sang in the back.
I was expecting more range however. Under realtime conditions they had app. 150km range. That is not a lot. Of course, they had many demo acc. runs and stop go. Still, should be interesting to see what the Tesla can achieve in that driving environment.
Still for the money it’s a convincing package if you want to go electric.
BMW had various i3s there. Unfortunately I could not get behind the steering wheel, yet.
The design is truly unique, in-and outside. People will either love or hate it. This is no ordinary car and to my eyes it’s looks rather futuristic. The visibility is great, the turning cycle extremely small. Still it’s not a classic BMW handling machine. It’s just entirely different.
I was impressed by the acceleration. It’s no Tesla rival obviously. But you feel the lightweight concept. It’s much faster than a Volt, Leaf or Renault Zoe. Even a 220hp Golf GTI will have a hard time to follow this car up to 120 kph. For sure a lot of people will have fun with it. And I also liked the way the small engine sang in the back.
I was expecting more range however. Under realtime conditions they had app. 150km range. That is not a lot. Of course, they had many demo acc. runs and stop go. Still, should be interesting to see what the Tesla can achieve in that driving environment.
Still for the money it’s a convincing package if you want to go electric.
From AQQU's visit to the IAA is the following picture of the i3 CCS charge port.
check this pinout diagram:
You can see that power pins are there for PE, N, L1, and DC-High. L2 and L3 are missing.
I guess therefrom that i3 will not be capable to charge from 3 phase AC. (a certain user will outrage if he's not busy driving his new Model S across Europe :wink
Nor is the i3 capable to charge with DC-low (max. 40kW) or DC-Mid (max. 70kW).
BMW only allows
AC: single phase 20kW at 80A (but in Germany single phase loads are limited to 32A, gives 7.7kW), or
DC-High at 100kW (but no such charging stations have been sighted in the wild)
Idontgetit. They crippled it?
check this pinout diagram:
You can see that power pins are there for PE, N, L1, and DC-High. L2 and L3 are missing.
I guess therefrom that i3 will not be capable to charge from 3 phase AC. (a certain user will outrage if he's not busy driving his new Model S across Europe :wink
Nor is the i3 capable to charge with DC-low (max. 40kW) or DC-Mid (max. 70kW).
BMW only allows
AC: single phase 20kW at 80A (but in Germany single phase loads are limited to 32A, gives 7.7kW), or
DC-High at 100kW (but no such charging stations have been sighted in the wild)
Idontgetit. They crippled it?
tommolog
Member
These are pre-production units. I can't imagine why, but perhaps they just didn't use the production inlet. This is from BMW's press release:
"When the BMW i3 is plugged into a public DC fast-charging station (50 kW) it only takes about 20 minutes for the battery to reach 80 percent capacity."
"When the BMW i3 is plugged into a public DC fast-charging station (50 kW) it only takes about 20 minutes for the battery to reach 80 percent capacity."
The press release isn't in contradiction. DC high is up to 100kW, but controlled by the car. The i3 would limit it to 50kW based on the size of the battery (chances are that's all CCS stations will support anyway). However, they say nothing about 3 phase charging. Like all the non-Tesla small battery cars, they don't want to spring for a more expensive charger in the car.
surfingslovak
Member
That's what I heard on the goingelectric.de forum too. In fact, someone claimed that the onboard charger was supposed to be limited to 16 amp single-phase on European models, but this decision was reversed? The US trims were always quoted with 32 amp single-phase AC charging.
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gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
One of the biggest BMW dealerships in the SF Bay Area, Peter Pan BMW, now have a massive section of a wall facing hwy 101 sporting the i3 and the i8. They seem to be serious about selling these atleast in EV-friendly markets such as here. Btw, Peter Pan is just down the street from Tesla Burlingame who have their own bright red T facing the freeway; let's see how it goes
One of the biggest BMW dealerships in the SF Bay Area, Peter Pan BMW, now have a massive section of a wall facing hwy 101 sporting the i3 and the i8. They seem to be serious about selling these atleast in EV-friendly markets such as here. Btw, Peter Pan is just down the street from Tesla Burlingame who have their own bright red T facing the freeway; let's see how it goes
That BMW dealership must be in never never land if they think they can compete with Tesla. Huh? Huh?
dennis
Model S Plaid
That BMW dealership must be in never never land if they think they can compete with Tesla. Huh? Huh?
Not everyone that wants an EV can afford the $70K-$120K price tag of the Model S.
surfingslovak
Member
That BMW dealership must be in never never land if they think they can compete with Tesla. Huh? Huh?
As was already discussed upthread, although both cars are in the premium segment, they serve a different need, and there is space for both. Plenty of Nissan LEAFs are sold in the Bay Area and I know several people that own both a LEAF and a Model S. I think it would be beneficial not to see this black-and-white. The i3 and Model S do not compete head-to-head, even though the press likes to stylize it that way for some drama. That said, here is a quote from a recent article in Charged EVs:
Charles Morris said:
TonyWilliams
Active Member
I really dislike this simplistic averaging to tell me how many miles of autonomy my car should have.
The average height of men is only 5' 10", so lets build 6 foot tall doors concept.
The average height of men is only 5' 10", so lets build 6 foot tall doors concept.
surfingslovak
Member
I think this is one of the primary reasons why we ended up with a 21.6 kWh battery, and the world has yet another sub-100-miles EV.
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