Brake Cooling Ducts

[stickman]

OK -- you are brilliant.

Put up a Model 3 against Kia's and SUV's on a track, versus Porsche, BMW, MB, etc.

Wow -- I'm impressed -- what an incredible track performance!!! Your argument is brilliant.

What I was referencing was a flat out WOT throttle run video at the Nürburgring in Germany in a Model S class as seen on Youtube. To the Tesla devotees, only viewable if they take off their rose colored glasses, else you will start to cry.

Come on folks -- the Model 3 is designed to be a plain jane, low cost EV commuter car similar to the VW Beetle in 1937 with "absolutely true" FSD capability some where in the next 5 to 10 years, if you can afford it.

And the bigger question is: "Even if you can afford it, why do you need it?" Are you legally blind? Do you suffer from Macular Denegation? Have you lost your drivers license due to DUIs, recently released from prison or have drug arrests? Why is Uber or Lyft not an incredibly cheaper option? Do you not have a working credit card to your name due to defaults?

Let's get real folks and move beyond the BS leaf blower and related hype. It's all about the fundaments and free cash flow, instead of having to raising more capital which involves issuing more stock, which will dilute current stock prices. Think long term, not yesterday.

Somebody forgot to take their meds...

 

[SammichLover]

I do still need to smooth out the ducts on the front aero shield, as well as build snap-in pieces to cover the holes when they are not being used on the track as I don't want reduced efficiency on the street.

They do look kinda rough. Do you notice any increased wind noise at "highway" speeds? What do you think they are doing to the aerodynamics? Normally reducing the flow rate under the middle of the car, which this probably does since it is diverting some to the wheels, would reduce the airspeed which in turn would mean the air pressure underneath wouldn't drop as much and thus reduce downward force?

Probably isn't enough to notice casually or you'd mention it but any idea how to get a good sensitivity on measuring that effect, if there's any difference?

I haven't tried pulling off the cowling yet so don't have any idea but do you think there is any chance you'd be able to route so you could drop a flat-ish snorke on the bottom side of the front corners to intake in front of each wheel instead? Normally wheels, and pressure in front of them, are something of a pain point for aerodynamics anyway both from having to push against the air and then the lateral movement of the air as it is pushed out away from the wheels.

 

[mcbarnet007]

Somebody forgot to take their meds...

na, a clear Tesla short or troll. Just put on ignore and move on.

 

[pdq]

Somebody forgot to take their meds...

Actually someone not on meds, former P90D owner who realizes strengths and weaknesses of Tesla products versus someone who worships them Godmobiles. These are commuter cars folks, not race cars.

 

[MasterC17]

Actually someone not on meds, former P90D owner who realizes strengths and weaknesses of Tesla products versus someone who worships them Godmobiles. These are commuter cars folks, not race cars.

Clearly you have no understanding of the differences between the Model 3 and the Model S. A Performance 3 makes a great track car, as has been proven time and time again by the number of people on this forum who track their P3D's, myself included.

Guess what, Tesla has made advancements, many in fact, since they designed the S/X battery pack and cooling system 8 years ago. Believe it or not, the Model 3 has much better cooling capabilities for both the battery AND the drive units. It also weighs less, and makes less power, which puts less strain on the drivetrain components. Coming in here and telling us (you know, the people who own and track the cars) that they are terrible track cars is completely idiotic. I've done amateur racing for years, not to mention built race-cars myself. The 3 is incredibly capable, and with just pads and tires I was able to run a 2:13 at VIR (oh, and it was my first time there). That's about the same time a brand-new BMW M3 with pads and tires runs (guess what, I owned one of those and tracked it too).

Moral of the story, you clearly do not own a Model 3 and have no interest in supporting EV's on track so why did you even bother posting in this thread?

Finally, P3D's DON'T overheat on-track like the S does. So there goes your brilliant theory, right out the window.

 

[MasterC17]

They do look kinda rough. Do you notice any increased wind noise at "highway" speeds? What do you think they are doing to the aerodynamics? Normally reducing the flow rate under the middle of the car, which this probably does since it is diverting some to the wheels, would reduce the airspeed which in turn would mean the air pressure underneath wouldn't drop as much and thus reduce downward force?

Probably isn't enough to notice casually or you'd mention it but any idea how to get a good sensitivity on measuring that effect, if there's any difference?

I haven't tried pulling off the cowling yet so don't have any idea but do you think there is any chance you'd be able to route so you could drop a flat-ish snorke on the bottom side of the front corners to intake in front of each wheel instead? Normally wheels, and pressure in front of them, are something of a pain point for aerodynamics anyway both from having to push against the air and then the lateral movement of the air as it is pushed out away from the wheels.

Great questions.

I haven't noticed increased wind noise. I do suspect they are, to a small degree, negatively impacting downforce on the front of the car, however I am working on aero to counteract that. I also thought about moving them further out but there is not a lot of room to do it, not that it isn't possible. I believe the ideal solution might be 2" ducting that is mounted in front of the wheels. I would love to see what other people come up with!

 

[SammichLover]

I believe the ideal solution might be 2" ducting that is mounted in front of the wheels. I would love to see what other people come up with!

That's what I was thinking, with directional rotors in and pumping out more air it'd create a bit more pressure drop from intake until the back plate end of the ducting so you wouldn't need to rely on intake pressure and cross-section of the ducting so much to move air. Just take advantage of some native positive pressure in front of the tires and somehow loop it up overtop of the wheel well liners, and around to the back of the brakes.

I'm at least going to look at it. Have access to a lift now, although not easy access.

However it'll certainly be gut-check time when it comes to putting the hole saw bit on that back plate though. Hats off to your bravery on that.

 

[MasterC17]

That's what I was thinking, with directional rotors in and pumping out more air it'd create a bit more pressure drop from intake until the back plate end of the ducting so you wouldn't need to rely on intake pressure and cross-section of the ducting so much to move air. Just take advantage of some native positive pressure in front of the tires and somehow loop it up overtop of the wheel well liners, and around to the back of the brakes.

I'm at least going to look at it. Have access to a lift now, although not easy access.

However it'll certainly be gut-check time when it comes to putting the hole saw bit on that back plate though. Hats off to your bravery on that.

I wonder if it may just be easier to route the hoses off to the ends of the front aero shield in front of the wheel well arches and leave the rest of the routing the same. Hmm, maybe I will need to make another modification to this lol. Let me see what I can figure out this afternoon, thanks for the input!

 

[SammichLover]

I wonder if it may just be easier to route the hoses off to the ends of the front aero shield in front of the wheel well arches and leave the rest of the routing the same. Hmm, maybe I will need to make another modification to this lol. Let me see what I can figure out this afternoon, thanks for the input!

Are you thinking about the open ducting on the sides? I'm a little skittish about messing with that flow, as it seems to be sculpting some air flow to curtain at the tires in a purposeful way.


<edit> On second thought, putting on a lot wider tires that tends to happen for the track messes with that aero design anyway. So as long is you can easy switch back for "street", or you drive a lot wider tires normally, that concern is a lot less.

BTW, had a bunch of rain here yesterday, driving in water curb deep at times, which definitely drives home that I'd want something that was easy to switch back to "street". Don't want to be accidentally drawing in splashes of water and distributing it to my brakes rotors. LOL

 

[beastmode13]

I’ve seen some Porsche stock from factory with small winglet air scopes mounted on the lower suspension arm that just direct some under body air toward center of the rotor. That’s the direction I’m looking into. The winglet will not direct more air than the hose setup, but for my occasional track needs might be enough with the RB rotors I have.

 

[MasterC17]

Are you thinking about the open ducting on the sides? I'm a little skittish about messing with that flow, as it seems to be sculpting some air flow to curtain at the tires in a purposeful way.

BTW, had a bunch of rain here yesterday, driving in water curb deep at times, which definitely drives home that I'd want something that was easy to switch back to "street". Don't want to be accidentally drawing in splashes of water and distributing it to my brakes rotors. LOL

See attached photo for what I was thinking. Definitely want "street covers" to swap back in the rain/highway.

Also see attached e-Tron aerodynamics and how they vented the radiator/cooled the brakes.

 

[beastmode13]

See attached photo for what I was thinking. Definitely want "street covers" to swap back in the rain/highway.

Also see attached e-Tron aerodynamics and how they vented the radiator/cooled the brakes.

Seems like a win/win if you can channel the high pressure in front of tire to the low pressure zone around center of the rotor. A nice push and draw effect, and lower air resistance.

 

[03DSG]

See attached photo for what I was thinking. Definitely want "street covers" to swap back in the rain/highway.

Also see attached e-Tron aerodynamics and how they vented the radiator/cooled the brakes.

Nice work. I fabbed 3” cooling ducts on my track Cobra using purpose built back plates very similar to yours. I was fortunate Ford provided 3” tubed openings on both sides right beside the fog lights. Very cool use of the Naca ducts.

 

[MasterC17]

Nice work. I fabbed 3” cooling ducts on my track Cobra using purpose built back plates very similar to yours. I was fortunate Ford provided 3” tubed openings on both sides right beside the fog lights. Very cool use of the Naca ducts.

Yeah I don't think Tesla expected anyone to be putting brake ducts on their M3 lol. But Ford I am sure had thought about that.

 

[TEZLA3]

@MasterC17 You might want to consider SCAT tubing for your ducting. Smoother and will resist a higher temperature. 99% of the ducting on racing vehicles is done with SCAT.

@pdq sez "Actually someone not on meds, former P90D owner who realizes strengths and weaknesses of Tesla products versus someone who worships them Godmobiles. These are commuter cars folks, not race cars."

I don't have a clue what planet you are from but the majority of "race cars" started their life as a production car.

 

[Mash]

I'd like to restart this subject. Clearly M3 doesn't have enough space to route full size cooling ducts. From my past experience on the subject - increase of rotors size can only decrease rotor maximum temperature during single braking.

Now we need to evacuate this temperature out. Wide wheels make it harder, larger rotors also mess up with that. Shields for sensors can be done, so back plate have to go, but that won't be enough for actual full 30 minutes session. Pads and fluid for higher temps help a lot to release energy faster, but at really curvy tracks its still inefficient power dissipation.

Some time ago I was doing calcs for water cooling system. Idea is simple - small water tank in the trunk, membrane pumps for $50 for water filters. On/off switch, flow regulators, trigger from taillights to spray a bit of water in the center of rotor. Water evaporation takes a lot of energy out. No real risk of any rotor damage. Very easy tiny plastic tubes rooting and stainless mist nozzle with tube for injection.

Potentially can add IR sensors for rotor temperature as triggers instead of taillights - that also prevents overcooling and accidental pit leakage.

Injection water to rotors certainly used on the track before. Nissan GT-R News – GTRBlog.com » Willall Racing WR35WS Brake Cooling System for Nissan GT-R But it's a question for classes allowance. Bonus - it looks cool.

What do you think?

 

[MasterC17]

I'd like to restart this subject. Clearly M3 doesn't have enough space to route full size cooling ducts. From my past experience on the subject - increase of rotors size can only decrease rotor maximum temperature during single braking.

Now we need to evacuate this temperature out. Wide wheels make it harder, larger rotors also mess up with that. Shields for sensors can be done, so back plate have to go, but that won't be enough for actual full 30 minutes session. Pads and fluid for higher temps help a lot to release energy faster, but at really curvy tracks its still inefficient power dissipation.

Some time ago I was doing calcs for water cooling system. Idea is simple - small water tank in the trunk, membrane pumps for $50 for water filters. On/off switch, flow regulators, trigger from taillights to spray a bit of water in the center of rotor. Water evaporation takes a lot of energy out. No real risk of any rotor damage. Very easy tiny plastic tubes rooting and stainless mist nozzle with tube for injection.

Potentially can add IR sensors for rotor temperature as triggers instead of taillights - that also prevents overcooling and accidental pit leakage.

Injection water to rotors certainly used on the track before. Nissan GT-R News – GTRBlog.com » Willall Racing WR35WS Brake Cooling System for Nissan GT-R But it's a question for classes allowance. Bonus - it looks cool.

What do you think?

I still have to test the actual effectiveness of this setup, but it is possible to add 3" brake ducts.

P3D+ Street/Track/Time Trial Build

 

[Aggmeister2010]

I still have to test the actual effectiveness of this setup, but it is possible to add 3" brake ducts.

P3D+ Street/Track/Time Trial Build

What about Brake Cooling Deflectors? They're super simple, easy to 3D print, and don't require modifying anything. Popular in the BMW/Audi circles.

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-ecs-parts/audi-b8-b85-a4-and-s4-brake-cooling-duct-set/006945la04~akt/

 

[TwoK4drSi]

@MasterC17 @Mash

If you need brake ducts this company makes carbon ones. It doesn’t go into routing

Carbon Bremsenbelüftung für Tesla Model 3 Performance

Du fährst aktiv mit Deinem Tesla Model 3 auf dem Track? Die Nordschleife ist Dein Freund und die Mausefalle verbindest Du mit einem Rennstreckenabteil. Dann wirst Du mit Deinem Tesla Model 3 sicher auch schon an die Grenze der Leistungsfähigkeit der Bremse gekommen sein. Wir bieten Dir hier...

shop.silentdrive.de

 

[Mash]

@MasterC17 @Mash

If you need brake ducts this company makes carbon ones. It doesn’t go into routing

Carbon Bremsenbelüftung für Tesla Model 3 Performance

Du fährst aktiv mit Deinem Tesla Model 3 auf dem Track? Die Nordschleife ist Dein Freund und die Mausefalle verbindest Du mit einem Rennstreckenabteil. Dann wirst Du mit Deinem Tesla Model 3 sicher auch schon an die Grenze der Leistungsfähigkeit der Bremse gekommen sein. Wir bieten Dir hier...

shop.silentdrive.de

It's interesting to see how they do the routing. I'm not sure that it fits UP carbon rotors.