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Breaking down the excessive rear, inner tire wear

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ngng

Active Member
Jul 23, 2018
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Bay Area
I had a bunch of warranty work done at the dealer, some of which included replacement parts for the shudder. The entire front end of the car was apart. After I picked the car up I noticed that it was pulling right and immediately suspected an improper alignment (or, in this case...no alignment). Figured this would be a good time to post my thoughts on the topic of tire wear since everybody seems concerns, but nobody really seems to understand what's going on.

I am not an alignment expert by any means, but I routinely align my race cars within 1/16" so I have a basic understanding of what's going on.

If you look at the before measurements there are a handful of callouts: camber, caster, toe. You can Google all these for more info, but the high level:
- camber is the wheel's angle looking at it from the front/back of car, camber is generally negative (leaning in towards the centerline)
- caster involves only the front, steering end of the car. I generally think of it as the angle between the centerline of the upper and lower ball joints. It is responsible for the "self-centering" effect when you are driving: in a high perf car, if you're sliding the rear and let go of the wheel and it recenters; or if you're making a turn out of a parking lot and let go of the wheel and it recenters/unwinds. You want both sides to have similar, positive caster
- toe is the angle, viewed top down that the tire is rotated inwards (negative) or outwards (positive)

These values are all related. First you set camber, then caster, and finally toe.


c3bfd8b60dcdf97b04c2679367b3c2e2.png



Let's ignore the before measurements since they are absolutely terrible.

Camber: everything looks reasonable here. I've driven plenty of cars with similar, or more aggressive negative camber. While it does wear the inside of the tire faster, unless the camber is very aggressive it's not typically the culprit.

Caster: Close-ish on both sides. This looks good. The car will self-center.

Toe: Front toe looks great. I typically align my cars with 1/16" total front toe out (negative) and 1/16" total rear toe in (positive), sometimes zero. You'll have to convert back and forth between degrees and inches/mm if you care. The rear has waaay too much toe out. To put things in perspective, if you convert the 0.42 degrees of total rear toe you are looking at nearly 1/4" of toe in. That doesn't sound like much, but 1/8" of total toe results in the inside of the tire being dragged sideways almost 100 feet per mile of driving. THIS is why our rear tires are wearing so quickly.

Now that I have a baseline, I will track the inside tire wear and report back. The tires are brand new, and I now have a baseline alignment. If the wear is unacceptable, I may consider a set of toe links, but I doubt I will spend the money for the aftermarket ride height adjustor and camber arms.
 
The rear has waaay too much toe out. To put things in perspective, if you convert the 0.42 degrees of total rear toe you are looking at nearly 1/4" of toe in. That doesn't sound like much, but 1/8" of total toe results in the inside of the tire being dragged sideways almost 100 feet per mile of driving. THIS is why our rear tires are wearing so quickly.
I don’t know much of anything about alignment, but I just replaced my rear tires and they were completely worn on the inside. I assume from reading your post the rear alignment is a major cause of this. A few weeks ago Tesla replaced my rear toe links, do you think having these replaced will correct that issue? My car is a 2016 P100D with about 75k on it. If not, do I just need to go get it aligned? Would Tesla be the best for that or just a local alignment shop?
 
I don’t know much of anything about alignment, but I just replaced my rear tires and they were completely worn on the inside. I assume from reading your post the rear alignment is a major cause of this. A few weeks ago Tesla replaced my rear toe links, do you think having these replaced will correct that issue? My car is a 2016 P100D with about 75k on it. If not, do I just need to go get it aligned? Would Tesla be the best for that or just a local alignment shop?

You might very well have an alignment that meets the factory specs but you will still see inner tire wear. But, if your alignment is even worse than spec'd you will see even worse wear. How many miles did you see on your tires? Without seeing your spec sheet, it would be hard to tell if Tesla has updated the toe links. There's a chance they have more adjustability, but there's no way to confirm without seeing them.
 
I don’t know much of anything about alignment, but I just replaced my rear tires and they were completely worn on the inside. I assume from reading your post the rear alignment is a major cause of this. A few weeks ago Tesla replaced my rear toe links, do you think having these replaced will correct that issue? My car is a 2016 P100D with about 75k on it. If not, do I just need to go get it aligned? Would Tesla be the best for that or just a local alignment shop?
I would recommend Tesla for alignments. They have the right equipment and generally the knowledge. If you are a long way from Tesla, some Firestone centers have Tesla trained folks on board. But I would ask them before signing up.
 
I would recommend Tesla for alignments. They have the right equipment and generally the knowledge. If you are a long way from Tesla, some Firestone centers have Tesla trained folks on board. But I would ask them before signing up.

All Tesla is going to do is throw the car on their alignment rack and get the car "within spec". When the boxes turn green, their job is done. I believe Tesla is aligning in "low" right now. Same thing any other Firestone style alignment shop is gonna do, but because they are less knowledgeable you could set your suspension to the ride height you prefer before they align it. If you really want to provide a target spec, you can go to shop that specializes in performance vehicle alignments.
 
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All Tesla is going to do is throw the car on their alignment rack and get the car "within spec". When the boxes turn green, their job is done. I believe Tesla is aligning in "low" right now. Same thing any other Firestone style alignment shop is gonna do, but because they are less knowledgeable you could set your suspension to the ride height you prefer before they align it. If you really want to provide a target spec, you can go to shop that specializes in performance vehicle alignments.
I think this is the key. Set the car to the ride height you will be in most often and the shop can let the machine do the work.
 
I have less than 10k miles on my Scorpion Zero tires and are very worn on the rear inside. The place I purchased from will not honor the 50k mileage warranty due to uneven wear. Anyone know which tire model/make have usable warranty under these conditions that our X put on tires?
 
I have less than 10k miles on my Scorpion Zero tires and are very worn on the rear inside. The place I purchased from will not honor the 50k mileage warranty due to uneven wear. Anyone know which tire model/make have usable warranty under these conditions that our X put on tires?

Tire warranties will only cover manufacturer defects and EVEN tire wear. Uneven tire wear is not the result of a the tire manufacturer.
 
I had a bunch of warranty work done at the dealer, some of which included replacement parts for the shudder. The entire front end of the car was apart. After I picked the car up I noticed that it was pulling right and immediately suspected an improper alignment (or, in this case...no alignment). Figured this would be a good time to post my thoughts on the topic of tire wear since everybody seems concerns, but nobody really seems to understand what's going on.

I am not an alignment expert by any means, but I routinely align my race cars within 1/16" so I have a basic understanding of what's going on.

If you look at the before measurements there are a handful of callouts: camber, caster, toe. You can Google all these for more info, but the high level:
- camber is the wheel's angle looking at it from the front/back of car, camber is generally negative (leaning in towards the centerline)
- caster involves only the front, steering end of the car. I generally think of it as the angle between the centerline of the upper and lower ball joints. It is responsible for the "self-centering" effect when you are driving: in a high perf car, if you're sliding the rear and let go of the wheel and it recenters; or if you're making a turn out of a parking lot and let go of the wheel and it recenters/unwinds. You want both sides to have similar, positive caster
- toe is the angle, viewed top down that the tire is rotated inwards (negative) or outwards (positive)

These values are all related. First you set camber, then caster, and finally toe.


View attachment 737162


Let's ignore the before measurements since they are absolutely terrible.

Camber: everything looks reasonable here. I've driven plenty of cars with similar, or more aggressive negative camber. While it does wear the inside of the tire faster, unless the camber is very aggressive it's not typically the culprit.

Caster: Close-ish on both sides. This looks good. The car will self-center.

Toe: Front toe looks great. I typically align my cars with 1/16" total front toe out (negative) and 1/16" total rear toe in (positive), sometimes zero. You'll have to convert back and forth between degrees and inches/mm if you care. The rear has waaay too much toe out. To put things in perspective, if you convert the 0.42 degrees of total rear toe you are looking at nearly 1/4" of toe in. That doesn't sound like much, but 1/8" of total toe results in the inside of the tire being dragged sideways almost 100 feet per mile of driving. THIS is why our rear tires are wearing so quickly.

Now that I have a baseline, I will track the inside tire wear and report back. The tires are brand new, and I now have a baseline alignment. If the wear is unacceptable, I may consider a set of toe links, but I doubt I will spend the money for the aftermarket ride height adjustor and camber arms.
Thanks for sharing the info. I'm looking forward to your update in the future to see how your rear tires hold up after using your alignment settings. I just went to a chain service center that I've used before with no complaints to have an alignment done. I'm walking away learning about this excessive inner tire wear and have to replace my OEM tires after hitting 10K miles on my 2021 LR X. Hoping more frequent alignments may help in the future.

Also, when you say you may consider toe links, is that synonymous with a toe arm? Thanks again for the post.
 
I posted this in another forum but it also applies here and gives folks out of warranty another option to consider. The only modification that I have done to my car was during last July, I had the N2itive’s Alignment Kit 1 installed which got rid of the shudder, and also lowers the car about 1” in standard without wearing the inside of the tires. The shudder issue is caused by the drive shafts being at too large of an angle from the wheel to the gear box, which destroys the CV joints. No different than when as a kid I put a lift kit in my pickup, but ended up destroying the universal joints in a short time. So to avoid this happening, you can lower the car to reduce this angle, but then the car will wear out the inside of the tires very quickly but the outside tread looks like no wear. So this kit replaces the linkage in both rear wheels so the camber can be adjusted and the lowering links are installed at all 4 wheels. I had to drive 400 miles to the coast to a shop to do this install and align the car and the first thing I noticed after installing the kit and aligning the car is my WH-Mile improved quite a bit, any where from 280 - 325 WH-Mile . I attached the alignment sheet showing the alignment before the kit was installed and not able to adjust the camber. (A side note, I had the Tesla shop align the car right before I drove to the coast in the hopes this would reduce the wear on my tires) and the bottom of the page shows after the kit was installed and the final alignment. Hope the link works. Please let me know if it doesn't.
 

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I posted this in another forum but it also applies here and gives folks out of warranty another option to consider. The only modification that I have done to my car was during last July, I had the N2itive’s Alignment Kit 1 installed which got rid of the shudder, and also lowers the car about 1” in standard without wearing the inside of the tires. The shudder issue is caused by the drive shafts being at too large of an angle from the wheel to the gear box, which destroys the CV joints. No different than when as a kid I put a lift kit in my pickup, but ended up destroying the universal joints in a short time. So to avoid this happening, you can lower the car to reduce this angle, but then the car will wear out the inside of the tires very quickly but the outside tread looks like no wear. So this kit replaces the linkage in both rear wheels so the camber can be adjusted and the lowering links are installed at all 4 wheels. I had to drive 400 miles to the coast to a shop to do this install and align the car and the first thing I noticed after installing the kit and aligning the car is my WH-Mile improved quite a bit, any where from 280 - 325 WH-Mile . I attached the alignment sheet showing the alignment before the kit was installed and not able to adjust the camber. (A side note, I had the Tesla shop align the car right before I drove to the coast in the hopes this would reduce the wear on my tires) and the bottom of the page shows after the kit was installed and the final alignment. Hope the link works. Please let me know if it doesn't.
Hey, the linked worked and all that green looks beautiful!
A wrinkle in my story - I woke up the morning after my alignment with a flat rear tire - there was part of a razor blade lodged in the tread. First flat since I’ve had the car - weird timing, right?
Anyway, I took the car to a different service center to get the new set of rears and they’re essentially saying some of the same that I’ve heard on the forum - the X has no ability to have rear camber adjusted and 10k miles is about what I should expect to keep getting out of the tires.
They’ve been helpful though - I showed them your file which they’re impressed with because they can’t get the rear close, especially the driver’s side camber. They recommended I take it to Tesla to see if something is up with the suspension or the rear strut on that side and showed me at least one aftermarket option to replace the camber arms. I’m going to look more closely at the N2itives however.

Appreciate the detailed feedback, definitely helpful.
 
I'm so glad I found this thread. I have a 21 Model X with 30k miles. I do have some shuddering around 32mph-35mph upon acceleration. More importantly I checked my rear tires and the steel belts are showing through on the inside of the rear tires. I looked up N2itive site and they don't have the products for the 21 yet. I will call them tomorrow as well as the Tesla service.
 
I've followed this thread and I can say my 2019 X is on the original rears tires at 29,000 miles and showing little wear. I expect I'll replace them around 40 to 50k because I like a lot of tread depth. I did replace the fronts at 25k miles when I had the half shafts replaced. I do drive the car in the snow and ice so tread depth is important to me. I find it annoying Tesla hasn't resolved the half shaft angle problem yet.
 
Questions for Mark J: What settings did you use for the lowering links? I believe N2intive recommends at least #5. How much did that lower the car, do you have any idea? When you had the alignment done, what was the suspension setting? Do you keep it at that level all the time? Some people say that you cannot override the factory setup, others disagree. I intend to install the kit myself but there is no alignment shop in my area that is familiar with this setup so I need to be specific if I have any hope to favorable outcome.
 
So I’m pretty sure I understand the issue and the how new rear adjustable suspension arms address tire wear. What’s wrong with just adding lowering links in the front to correct drive shaft angle and leaving the rear alone. Permanent cheetah stance. Love to hear thoughts.

Evan
 
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  1. What setting did you use for the lowering links (N2intive recommends -5)
    1. Yes 5
  2. What suspension height did you set the car to when you had it aligned?
    1. Standard (Was going to have it aligned @ low but shop miss-understood, but it is fine as is)
  3. Do you allow the car to automatically change from standard to low while driving, or do you have it set to stay at a specific height all the time?
    1. I leave it on standard which is the same as the old low setting.
  4. N2intive recommends -1 degree camber. You alignment results are a little greater. Was there a reason for that?
    1. I went with the shop in Belview recommended seeing as they have installed quite a few of these
  5. Your Left rear toe was way out although you said that Tesla aligned the car just prior.
    1. Yes Tesla in Spokane aligned it first before the kit install
  6. What is you experience with shudder and tire wear assuming you have put some miles on the car since the work was done?
    1. I have been measuring the tire wear ever sense I had the kit installed with about 25,000 miles on sense the install and the tires are wearing very evenly. No shudder at all either.
  7. Verry happy with this install and even though it was expensive, saving a lot in the long run. Besides 2nd set of tires is about equal to this install which I haven't had to buy early.
  8. Amazing that N@intive was able to come up with a solution, you would thing Tesla would do the same because I am reading that the new model x cars are also having the same issue. Good luck