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Calling P85D owners world-wide for survey and complaint letter

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While Tesla no longer states the combined motor power, the HP rating of the individual motors has increased since P85D launch. That does not point to there being any headroom in the previous figures. If there were, Tesla would have no need to increase the ratings. Make sense?

When I saw that new 503/259 HP I could not believe that Tesla is so stupid to post AGAIN a wrong HP number after they just fixed the initial claim (which we now know they did not 100 %). Assuming ludicrous would have resulted in 691 HP, Tesla could finally have stopped the BS and go back to the honest advertising like they did it in the past and still do for all OTHER models but the P.

So why the hell again a new BS number ? A few days ago I finally got it. IF they would have kept the 691 HP, it would have been an admittance of guilt and EVERYBODY would have asked why to pay 10k for something which was before free !

The most amazing part for me of all that mess is still how many people accept that BS ! And of those of you who do, does it never come to your mind that the ONLY reason why misleading and false advertising exist is the fact that people accept it ?
 
While Tesla no longer states the combined motor power, the HP rating of the individual motors has increased since P85D launch. That does not point to there being any headroom in the previous figures. If there were, Tesla would have no need to increase the ratings. Make sense?
Them adjusting the individual numbers is orthogonal to there being any headroom to the overall hp number. This is because we do not know the power mix of the individual motors (none of the dynos so far done on the P85D are able to determine the power output of the individual motors, we only have combined numbers and very low ones at that).

From the facts we have established so far we are fairly certain the battery bottleneck is ~550hp pre-ludicrous. While no one has dynoed the motors independently as installed on the P85D, we do know the 470hp on the rear motor is achievable from P85 REST API and dyno results of 430whp. That leaves 80hp on the front motor vs the 221hp rating. Given the 85D has been measured at REST API far higher than 80hp*2=160hp (400+hp), I don't see much reason to doubt the front motor's 221hp rating as installed on the original P85D. While gearing makes some contribution, I very much doubt it makes 221-80 = 141 hp of deficit.

And do note that the S85D underwent some updates to power, it went from 188 motor power to 257 motor power with the 6.2 update, now to 259. The P90D front motor's new rating seems to carry over from a similar update. The rear motor for the standard models also went from 380hp to 382 hp now.
 
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Since the original point of this thread was the acceleration and we have had many and good postings about the different standards for measuring 0-60 mph performance, I find the Motor Trend review of the P90D interesting. They get a 3.2s 0-60 mph. Looks like the ludicrous is what many people think, the thing that makes the P85D perform close to promised.

Quote: I may or may not have clocked a personal best of 3.2 seconds. As much as I would have liked to match Musk’s claim, it’s worth remembering 3.2 seconds is exactly what the legendary McLaren F1 delivered.

http://www.wired.com/2015/08/tesla-model-s-p90d-review/
 
Since the original point of this thread was the acceleration and we have had many and good postings about the different standards for measuring 0-60 mph performance, I find the Motor Trend review of the P90D interesting. They get a 3.2s 0-60 mph. Looks like the ludicrous is what many people think, the thing that makes the P85D perform close to promised.

Quote: I may or may not have clocked a personal best of 3.2 seconds. As much as I would have liked to match Musk’s claim, it’s worth remembering 3.2 seconds is exactly what the legendary McLaren F1 delivered.

http://www.wired.com/2015/08/tesla-model-s-p90d-review/
That's Wired, not Motor Trend. I thought you read a new article from Motor Trend. Wired is a tech blog, so they don't do car testing in the same way (looks like they just drove it on the street). If it was Motor Trend, they would use rollout and also post their instrumented results (we'll know 1/4 mile numbers for sure too).
 
That's Wired, not Motor Trend. I thought you read a new article from Motor Trend. Wired is a tech blog, so they don't do car testing in the same way (looks like they just drove it on the street). If it was Motor Trend, they would use rollout and also post their instrumented results (we'll know 1/4 mile numbers for sure too).

Yes, sorry. My mistake. Wired.

But maybe their testing is more in line with real world use? And then again they may have used some iPhone app for the 0-60 times, being a tech magazine ...
 
Yes, sorry. My mistake. Wired.

But maybe their testing is more in line with real world use? And then again they may have used some iPhone app for the 0-60 times, being a tech magazine ...
That's the thing. Being tech focused (they rarely review cars), I doubt they have an established and consistent way of testing acceleration for cars. And testing acceleration on public streets is generally frowned upon by law enforcement (that's why they worded that claim as "may or may not have"). For the P90D specifically the battery heating mode also adds complication. It's okay to take the ball park number, but for comparison purposes it's not that useful.

Even between different car magazines, the numbers are not always comparable, since each may have slight variations in how they do their testing (and they test at different locations too). That's why I usually prefer to compare numbers when it is done by the same publication and avoid crossing publications.
 
Even between different car magazines, the numbers are not always comparable, since each may have slight variations in how they do their testing (and they test at different locations too). That's why I usually prefer to compare numbers when it is done by the same publication and avoid crossing publications.

And that's probably also why you prefer to compare numbers and tests done by the same manufacturer, because their testing policies are consistent, so that people can easily compare one model to another. Oh. Wait. Come to think of it...
 
And that's probably also why you prefer to compare numbers and tests done by the same manufacturer, because their testing policies are consistent, so that people can easily compare one model to another. Oh. Wait. Come to think of it...
The numbers Tesla posted have never been hugely consistent. The S85 was originally advertised at 0-60 in 5.6, P85 at 0-60 in 4.4. This was later changed to 5.4 and 4.2 respectively with no change in power.

Motor Trend clocked 0-60 in 3.9 for P85 in late 2012.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...el_s_test_and_range_verification/viewall.html
Motor Trend clocked S85 at 5.0 and P85 at 4.0 in early 2013.
http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear...nd_car_of_the_year_tesla_model_s/viewall.html

The S60 was always advertised at 0-60 5.9 but people have gotten as low as 5.1 (unfortunately no instrumented testing by magazines to compare). S70 today as advertised at 0-60 in 5.5.

I don't think rollout is the culprit there, rather Tesla underrating their 0-60 and later correcting them closer to reality.
 
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The numbers Tesla posted have never been hugely consistent. The S85 was originally advertised at 0-60 in 5.6, P85 at 0-60 in 4.4. This was later changed to 5.4 and 4.2 respectively with no change in power.

Motor Trend clocked 0-60 in 3.9 for P85 in late 2012.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...el_s_test_and_range_verification/viewall.html
Motor Trend clocked S85 at 5.0 and P85 at 4.0 in early 2013.
http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear...nd_car_of_the_year_tesla_model_s/viewall.html

The S60 was always advertised at 0-60 5.9 but people have gotten as low as 5.1 (unfortunately no instrumented testing by magazines to compare). S70 today as advertised at 0-60 in 5.4.

I don't think rollout is the culprit there, rather Tesla underrating their 0-60 and later correcting them closer to reality.

The .2 second improvements could be due to tweaking of the software. No customer would complain that Tesla made their car faster. Those .2 second differences don't necessarily point to inconsistency in testing methodologies or underrating.

The big .5 second differences between Motor Trend numbers and Tesla numbers obviously are a result of Motor Trend using 1 foot roll out and Tesla, at that time, and until they published a P85D number, not using 1-foot roll out.

Which makes my point.

For Tesla to suddenly switch to using 1 foot roll out, without and indication whatsoever that they had changed their testing methodology, was misleading. Any reasonable person looking at the Tesla-published P85 0-60 time of 4.4 (taken from your post--I haven't looked this up) and the P85D 0-60 time of 3.2 (the original time Tesla published) would think the P85D was 1.2 seconds faster 0-60. They would have had no reason to believe Tesla had suddenly started using 1-foot roll out. And they would not have been able to compare magazine reviewed times for the two models, because the P85D wasn't available yet.

I have no issue with Tesla deciding to use 1-foot roll out, since a lot of publications do, and many manufacturers do. My issue is with the fact that they did not give any indication whatsoever that this was what they were doing. I feel strongly that they had a responsibility to do that, especially since this was a CHANGE from what they had been doing previously.
 
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The .2 second improvements could be due to tweaking of the software. No customer would complain that Tesla made their car faster. Those .2 second differences don't necessarily point to inconsistency in testing methodologies or underrating.

The big .5 second differences between Motor Trend numbers and Tesla numbers obviously are a result of Motor Trend using 1 foot roll out and Tesla, at that time, and until they published a P85D number, not using 1-foot roll out.

Which makes my point.

For Tesla to suddenly switch to using 1 foot roll out, without and indication whatsoever that they had changed their testing methodology, was misleading. Any reasonable person looking at the Tesla-published P85 0-60 time of 4.4 (taken from your post--I haven't looked this up) and the P85D 0-60 time of 3.2 (the original time Tesla published) would think the P85D was 1.2 seconds faster 0-60. They would have had no reason to believe Tesla had suddenly started using 1-foot roll out. And they would not have been able to compare magazine reviewed times for the two models, because the P85D wasn't available yet.

I have no issue with Tesla deciding to use 1-foot roll out, since a lot of publications do, and many manufacturers do. My issue is with the fact that they did not give any indication whatsoever that this was what they were doing. I feel strongly that they had a responsibility to do that, especially since this was a CHANGE from what they had been doing previously.

+1 Not using rollout on the old performance model (P85), and then using rollout for the new performance model (P85D) and then up-selling existing P85 owners based on these numbers ... that is not cool

But, we still do not know for a fact that Tesla uses rollout for the P85D, no official statement from Tesla to that fact.
 
+1 Not using rollout on the old performance model (P85), and then using rollout for the new performance model (P85D) and then up-selling existing P85 owners based on these numbers ... that is not cool

But, we still do not know for a fact that Tesla uses rollout for the P85D, no official statement from Tesla to that fact.

I appreciate the point you are making, though I think we all know that Tesla must have used 1-foot roll out to get the numbers that they published. I believe the point you are making is that Tesla is between a rock and a hard place: they either have to acknowledge that they switched to using 1-foot roll out when testing, with no indication that they made that switch, or they have to acknowledge that their cars (P85D and P90D with Ludicrous Mode) don't meet the 0-60 times that they have published for them.
 
The .2 second improvements could be due to tweaking of the software. No customer would complain that Tesla made their car faster. Those .2 second differences don't necessarily point to inconsistency in testing methodologies or underrating.

The big .5 second differences between Motor Trend numbers and Tesla numbers obviously are a result of Motor Trend using 1 foot roll out and Tesla, at that time, and until they published a P85D number, not using 1-foot roll out.

Which makes my point.
The S85 is actually 0.6 second difference, which is far more than the 0.3-0.4 you would expect from rollout. The S60 if you take the 5.9 and the 5.1 measured on vbox (with rollout), that would be 0.8 second difference, again far more than rollout. So my point was that Tesla understating the 0-60 numbers of those models is something that is different from just rollout.
http://www.dragtimes.com/blog/tesla-model-s-60-kwh-vs-tesla-model-s-85-kwh-performance

As for software update, there was none for the S85 and P85 that Tesla said would boost acceleration (if it resulted in 0.2 second difference I'm pretty sure Tesla would advertise that; they certainly did for the 0.1 second on the P85D). They just simply tweaked the advertised number. The measured numbers did not have any notable changes.

For Tesla to suddenly switch to using 1 foot roll out, without and indication whatsoever that they had changed their testing methodology, was misleading. Any reasonable person looking at the Tesla-published P85 0-60 time of 4.4 (taken from your post--I haven't looked this up) and the P85D 0-60 time of 3.2 (the original time Tesla published) would think the P85D was 1.2 seconds faster 0-60. They would have had no reason to believe Tesla had suddenly started using 1-foot roll out. And they would not have been able to compare magazine reviewed times for the two models, because the P85D wasn't available yet.

I have no issue with Tesla deciding to use 1-foot roll out, since a lot of publications do, and many manufacturers do. My issue is with the fact that they did not give any indication whatsoever that this was what they were doing. I feel strongly that they had a responsibility to do that, especially since this was a CHANGE from what they had been doing previously.
MotorTrend had their first test in 11/3/2014 of the P85D where they got 3.1 seconds and they were very explicit about the rollout (they typically don't even mention it):
"the Tesla punches the clock at 3.1 seconds, a tenth quicker than the Audi (as well as the McLaren F1's accepted time -- all of these after subtracting the customary 1-foot rollout)."
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1411_2015_tesla_model_s_p85d_first_test/

12/5/2014 was when the first delivery happened, so the tested numbers were all there already for comparison before the first delivery occurred!
http://insideevs.com/worlds-first-tesla-model-s-p85d-owner-gets-interviewed/

Comparing Motor Trend numbers including rollout: S85 to P85 had a 1 second gap (5.0 vs 4.0), P85 to P85D had a 0.9 second gap (4.0 vs 3.1).
Comparing Tesla advertised numbers during P85D launch: S85 to P85 had a 1.2 second gap (5.4 vs 4.2), P85 to P85D had a 1 second gap (4.2 vs 3.2).

So there was only a 0.1 second difference between the advertised and measured gap between P85 and P85D and 0.2 second difference for S85 and P85 (actually more difference, which would seem to disprove the theory of those models tested consistently without rollout). Again, it is not a 0.3-0.4 second difference as you would expect if rollout was the main thing at play here.
 
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Sorry if this has already mentioned but I didn't see it in the last 5 pages of the thread. The design studio has been updated and now states at the bottom that the P85D and P90D times are with rollout:

2015-09-04_21h55_23.png
 
Why does it say P90D BASE OPTION?? This sounds to me as if it's not applying to the Ludicrous version?

Well I wasn't going to say anything but it is a very odd and very specific choice of phrase.

Clearly today both the 3.2s and 2.8s times are with rollout, but it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that with the headroom they get from the newfangled fuse they might just find a way to squeeze enough performance from the P90DL to do a genuine 2.8s 0-60. That would put the Porsche 911 Turbo S in the car's sights which would be a great PR win since that's the last "everyday driveable" car on sale that is quicker than the Model S. They're already adding things like the max performance battery heating mode, and perhaps other firmware tweaks are being worked on too.

However I suspect it is just a strange bit of phrasing, and they mean that all the P times are with rollout including the P90DL.
 
Well I wasn't going to say anything but it is a very odd and very specific choice of phrase.

Clearly today both the 3.2s and 2.8s times are with rollout, but it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that with the headroom they get from the newfangled fuse they might just find a way to squeeze enough performance from the P90DL to do a genuine 2.8s 0-60. That would put the Porsche 911 Turbo S in the car's sights which would be a great PR win since that's the last "everyday driveable" car on sale that is quicker than the Model S. They're already adding things like the max performance battery heating mode, and perhaps other firmware tweaks are being worked on too.

However I suspect it is just a strange bit of phrasing, and they mean that all the P times are with rollout including the P90DL.


Hi there... We Danes has already been debating this strange statement with "Base Options". Hookmaker is suggesting it mean with "NO OPTIONS". In other words no sunroof, no leatherseat, no rear seat, not even a coke in the cup holder.

But as Werpedone says... Here we go again....

T.
 
So Tesla Motors US web-side now 10-11 month after the launch declairs that the P85D is with "1-foot rollout"

May I remind everyone about the P85D October launch.....

McLaren F1 was the benchmark. 0-60 mph in 3.2 s. It has later been improved with OTA to 3.1 s. Thanks for that free and unexpected upgrade Tesla.

Do you remember what McLarren said about "1-foot rollout" on the 20+ year old European car supercar !!!

3.2 s .JPG


maclaren f1 .JPG


I purchased a P85D in January 2015 that was marketed and may I point out "Hyped" with 0-60 mph 3,2 s performance.

I aknowledge that some, especially in the US market, seems to be more ready to accept the 0,3 s lower perfomance, but botton line is this is not what you paid for.


This case is not closed for the 15 original subscribers... and the 45+ P85D new ones.



Br

Torben_E
 
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Well I wasn't going to say anything but it is a very odd and very specific choice of phrase.

Clearly today both the 3.2s and 2.8s times are with rollout, but it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that with the headroom they get from the newfangled fuse they might just find a way to squeeze enough performance from the P90DL to do a genuine 2.8s 0-60. That would put the Porsche 911 Turbo S in the car's sights which would be a great PR win since that's the last "everyday driveable" car on sale that is quicker than the Model S. They're already adding things like the max performance battery heating mode, and perhaps other firmware tweaks are being worked on too.

However I suspect it is just a strange bit of phrasing, and they mean that all the P times are with rollout including the P90DL.


I hope and assume you're right about this! It's said too specifically BASE not to mean anything... I'll do precise measurements with my vbox when it arrives end of oktober! (I'm interested in a 1/4mile trapspeed. I expect it to be 120mph or slightly higher)