Calling P85D owners world-wide for survey and complaint letter

[Hookmaker]

Tomorrow Elon Musk will arrive in Denmark and try to convince the danish parlament NOT to apply a 180% tax on all electrical vehicles from the 1/1.

Thanks to these articles, the public opinion in Denmark will now see the Tesla owners as a bunch of super-car fanatics, enjoying a huge tax-deduction on their 'toys' (and still being disgrunted).

Releasing these articles the day before Elons arrival to discuss such an important issue with the danish politicians is nothing short of reckless. These articles could de-facto ensure that EV's cannot be sold in Denmark anymore due to the 180% taxation.

well done.

Absolute do not agree. There is no reason to blow Denmark up any further than it already is. First of all, this case has been long underway, Elons visit was planned a few weeks ago. Whether his opinion will matter is questionable (while I sure would hope so), since taxes in Denmark are collected on a need to HAVE basis and not for a specific other reason including that of environmental protection (yes, I am sorry as a Dane to actually have to say this). If I should be a bit cynical, I could say: Hey, welcome to Copenhagen, read the papers on the way over? - But I don't - I wish in stead Elon would have read ours and the USA letter and taken up the dialogue at the time.

- - - Updated - - -

Looks like they just posted an official explanation on their blog: Tesla All Wheel Drive (Dual Motor) Power and Torque Specifications | Tesla Motors

JB has written a quite nice explanation and if you translate and "condense" this to marketing and the sales page, it should probably help in the choice of vehicle.

But:

1) Why does this come at this time, and why could JB not simply have taken up a dialogue with this months ago?

2) It still does not close the gap of 6 months where customers have been fed the wrong information in the sales page on the website and quoting JB directly:

"With the P85D the combined motor shaft power can often exceed the battery electrical horsepower available. The dual motors utilize the battery horsepower in the widest variety of real world conditions. The true measures for any performance EV driver are acceleration times and driving performance of the vehicle."

This is in fact admitting what we have said all along - the battery electrical horsepower has a maximum (read = in kW), and no matter what motor you put in, it will not perform more than what this battery electrical horsepower will actually allow. AND this battery electrical horsepower in kW has been calculated here over and over again and it sums up to: can anyone guess??

 

[stopcrazypp]

This is in fact admitting what we have said all along - the battery electrical horsepower has a maximum (read = in kW), and no matter what motor you put in, it will not perform more than what this battery electrical horsepower will actually allow. AND this battery electrical horsepower in kW has been calculated here over and over again and it sums up to: can anyone guess??

Yes, that is true, but what Straubel is saying is the 691 hp number was the combined motor number. The motor numbers are also what European regulations require them to publish at minimum. There's been a lot of back and forth on this point and argument over if ECE R85 considers the battery, but it seems Straubel agrees with my interpretation (and some others so far) that it doesn't:
"In fact, it is only this (single or combined) motor shaft horsepower rating that is legally required to be posted in the European Union."

As for why they kept their mouth shut so long, I think it is because they know it is not an answer the people complaining want to hear. I genuinely think they were working on a software update that would give a bit more battery hp (although not 691 hp as some have speculated), but they ran into problems. Then their next move was the $5000 Ludicrous (discount over new cars), but the reaction to that was not positive for the people complaining (although there is a segment that is happy with that).

 

[Lauz]

Absolute do not agree. There is no reason to blow Denmark up any further than it already is. First of all, this case has been long underway, Elons visit was planned a few weeks ago. Whether his opinion will matter is questionable (while I sure would hope so), since taxes in Denmark are collected on a need to HAVE basis and not for a specific other reason including that of environmental protection (yes, I am sorry as a Dane to actually have to say this). If I should be a bit cynical, I could say: Hey, welcome to Copenhagen, read the papers on the way over? - But I don't - I wish in stead Elon would have read ours and the USA letter and taken up the dialogue at the time.

There is a bit more to story. You are fully aware that the parlament are in the process of negotiating the 2016 budget these weeks. If they fail to come to an agreement within the next couple of weeks, the 180% tax will be a reality.

Tesla has already (in another article) told us that your group gave Tesla an ultimatum. Free upgrades or you would unleash the media (which happened in the middle of these critical EV-negotiations).

Let's see how bad the damage will be.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

So now Tesla has officially responded and people are still not happy. Good lord!

 

[hpham007]

So now Tesla has officially responded and people are still not happy. Good lord!

Because a response is not a resolution..

 

[JER]

So now Tesla has officially responded and people are still not happy. Good lord!

Given that the press release doesn't say anything not already understood and acknowledged by the complainants, this should not come as a surprise.

 

[tezzla]

So now Tesla has officially responded and people are still not happy. Good lord!

So what Tesla is saying is: Really nothing, they are trying to obfuscate the issue for the P85D's.

 

[jimmyjohn]

I love this thread --- far more entertaining (via great escape) than any other news of the day. Hearing complaints about total horsepower and rollouts cracks me up. Please keep this going!

And... all of the 'controversies' and 'intentional misinformation' are more accurately described as a failure to appreciate what one has.

 

[jerjozwik]

this, and the vw emissions thread are in my number 1 and 2 slots.

 

[darthy001]

Hopefully not. I don't pretend to know Danish politics, but generally there is a lot of overlap between the greenies and the more socialist types that would potentially resent the Tesla owners. If I were a betting man, I'd put money on it that Elon's plea and the steady push from environmentalists will sway the politicians to retain the exemption. It looks good on Denmark to have the highest EV penetration of any country in the world.

Are you confusing Denmark with Norway? Norway is the country with an insane amount of EVs compared to number of people leaving here.

 

[JER]

... all of the 'controversies' and 'intentional misinformation' are more accurately described as a failure to appreciate what one has.

I don't even own a P85D. Where does that leave your "accuracy"?

 

[Hookmaker]

There is a bit more to story. You are fully aware that the parlament are in the process of negotiating the 2016 budget these weeks. If they fail to come to an agreement within the next couple of weeks, the 180% tax will be a reality.

Tesla has already (in another article) told us that your group gave Tesla an ultimatum. Free upgrades or you would unleash the media (which happened in the middle of these critical EV-negotiations).

Let's see how bad the damage will be.

Luz you do not seriously believe that the Danish budget negotiations will take into account a visit from Elon, if you do please bring in some more industry tycoons...;-)
Teslas statement about an ultimatum is an outright untruth (and to stress further: the DK press today is blowing with untrue statements from the Danish director of communication, - but he is acting on his own, I believe) , who are we to put ultimatums to Tesla - seriously??

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Because a response is not a resolution..

Resolution for what? Tesla explained how it came up with the numbers and why it advertised those numbers. Tesla is under no obligation to advertise numbers in the same manner as ICE vehicle manufacturers. Tesla clarified how it came up with the numbers and that it very clearly advertised the combined output of the two motors which is limited by the battery. Every other EV manufacturer that I'm aware also advertises motor power, just like Tesla.

Why is it Tesla's problem that customers took the motor power number and projected onto that all of the expectations and experiences they've accumulated from the ICE world? It seems that Tesla is blazing a trail into territory where no car manufacturer has been. As for the EU, per JB Straubel, they are legally required to advertise the motor power. And that's exactly what they did.

So what Tesla is saying is: Really nothing, they are trying to obfuscate the issue for the P85D's.

How are they obfuscating when they explained exactly how they came up with the figures and why those figures were used? It seems like what some people are looking for is for Tesla to waive a magic wand to make the P85D put down 691 HP on a dyno, short of that they want compensation or a free upgrade to Ludicrous. The car performs exactly as specified, so I'm not sure how those people are going to get any satisfaction.

I'm not trying to stir up controversy or anything. I read the blog post and it made sense to me.

 

[Matias]

This is a well written response. Obviously this won't satisfy the complainants but it does put Tesla's position in writing.
.

I find that post lame. He still doesn't tell, what the real horse power number in P85D is.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I find that post lame. He still doesn't tell, what the real horse power number in P85D is.

From my initial reading, I understood that the Dual motor designs cannot be tested in the manner you describe because of how the two motors interact with one another.

 

[tezzla]

How are they obfuscating when they explained exactly how they came up with the figures and why those figures were used? It seems like what some people are looking for is for Tesla to waive a magic wand to make the P85D put down 691 HP on a dyno, short of that they want compensation or a free upgrade to Ludicrous. The car performs exactly as specified, so I'm not sure how those people are going to get any satisfaction.

I'm not trying to stir up controversy or anything. I read the blog post and it made sense to me.

Okay, how much horsepower does the P85D create? (they seem to have an answer for the other cars)


Edit:

I guess we posted at the same time, okay how about this:

You can't tell (because of awd), so they make up a number: 691?

How does that make any sense.

 

[darthy001]

Resolution for what? Tesla explained how it came up with the numbers and why it advertised those numbers. Tesla is under no obligation to advertise numbers in the same manner as ICE vehicle manufacturers. Tesla clarified how it came up with the numbers and that it very clearly advertised the combined output of the two motors which is limited by the battery. Every other EV manufacturer that I'm aware also advertises motor power, just like Tesla.

Why is it Tesla's problem that customers took the motor power number and projected onto that all of the expectations and experiences they've accumulated from the ICE world? It seems that Tesla is blazing a trail into territory where no car manufacturer has been. As for the EU, per JB Straubel, they are legally required to advertise the motor power. And that's exactly what they did.



How are they obfuscating when they explained exactly how they came up with the figures and why those figures were used? It seems like what some people are looking for is for Tesla to waive a magic wand to make the P85D put down 691 HP on a dyno, short of that they want compensation or a free upgrade to Ludicrous. The car performs exactly as specified, so I'm not sure how those people are going to get any satisfaction.

In Denmark Tesla did _not_ use the term "motor power" so this first statement here is simply not correct. You also have the rollout issue.

Summed up the danes does _not_ have cars performing as advertised on 0-100kph or horsepower. In other countries including Norway your statement is closer to reality even if I stongly believe this is way beyond what Tesla led eveyone to believe in october 2014. Personally I am happy that Tesla finally has admitted that their numbers cant be compared to all other car manufacturers in europe and that they use rollout for 0-100kph only on one model for some reason.

Tesla wanted everyone to believe the car had 691hp. Just as Elon Musk said in australian 60minutes. Have they legally done nothing wrong in all countries but Denmark? Maybe...

In Denmark? No!

 

[tezzla]

I did chuckle at this statement: The vehicle takes off slightly faster than 1g of acceleration delivering the amazing 3.1 second 0-60 mph (96.6 kph) performance.

At least they're trying to be a little more specific for the rest of the world.

 

[darthy001]

From my initial reading, I understood that the Dual motor designs cannot be tested in the manner you describe because of how the two motors interact with one another.

It will never be higher than the ouput from the battery... That we know for certain. And that is beyond a reasonable doubt nowhere near 691hp...

And according to many people with vast dyno experince there is no problem measuring this with different methods either..

 

[dsm363]

Because a response is not a resolution..

It is for Tesla. There is no resolution to this issue that will make very one happy outside free cars or hardware upgrades now. Even then some have said the Ludicrous upgrade doesn't produce the hp they seek. Tesla is done with this issue I bet.