Can charge but cannot supercharge

[Olle]

The electronics penthouse is serviceable without even removing the pack.
Model S Service Manual | Tesla

Yes, on 3/Y the penthouse is serviceable without removing the pack. Not so on legacy S/X. (The service manual link in your post refers to HV junction box which doesn't contain the HV Battery contactors.)

Also legacy SX penthouse doesn't contain the contactors. Those are located on the main pack level and requires pack removal, then unsealing the main pack and deformation of pack cover. Here is a snippet of that manual section:

 

[MP3Mike]

Mostly unguided rationalization... Warranty is to protect from unexpected big expense. Only the block of cells is a big expense. Other parts are small in comparison and so do not need to be under the coverage umbrella. Loosely, it's like having a deductible.
Anything that requires unsealing the pack seems like it would be warranty, service can't relid them. The electronics penthouse is serviceable without even removing the pack.
Model S Service Manual | Tesla

I don't agree. There is nothing about the warranty only covering a "big expense". Anything that is part of the physical pack should be covered. Why do I say that? If you buy a new pack it comes with everything inside including the contactors, and the parts warranty for the purchased pack is 4 years/50k miles. There is no exclusion/exception for some portion of the internal pack parts.

So the same should hold true for the 8-year factory warranty. They have been playing the same game with the PCS on the Model 3/Y. It is inside the pack, so it should be covered, but they usually don't. (Sometimes they have.)

I think normally contactors have been covered as part of the pack warranty, so them not covering them is a new development. (Shoot they even cover the fuse replacement as part of the pack when they don't even have to drop the pack to replace it.)

 

[mongo]

I don't agree. There is nothing about the warranty only covering a "big expense". Anything that is part of the physical pack should be covered. Why do I say that? If you buy a new pack it comes with everything inside including the contactors, and the parts warranty for the purchased pack is 4 years/50k miles. There is no exclusion/exception for some portion of the internal pack parts.

So the same should hold true for the 8-year factory warranty. They have been playing the same game with the PCS on the Model 3/Y. It is inside the pack, so it should be covered, but they usually don't. (Sometimes they have.)

I think normally contactors have been covered as part of the pack warranty, so them not covering them is a new development. (Shoot they even cover the fuse replacement as part of the pack when they don't even have to drop the pack to replace it.)

I agree contactors inside the sealed compartment are a stretch due to potential issues with resealing.

Everything in the pack is initially covered under the original vehicle 4 year 50k warranty. The 8 year is an extension for specific items. If anything, the replacement pack not having an 8 year warranty portion is the departure.

Fuse is a unique situation due to their intermediate part design with known limited lifespan. V1 packs do require being removed to access top mounted pyro fuse.

 

[Olle]

I don't agree. There is nothing about the warranty only covering a "big expense". Anything that is part of the physical pack should be covered. Why do I say that? If you buy a new pack it comes with everything inside including the contactors, and the parts warranty for the purchased pack is 4 years/50k miles. There is no exclusion/exception for some portion of the internal pack parts.

So the same should hold true for the 8-year factory warranty. They have been playing the same game with the PCS on the Model 3/Y. It is inside the pack, so it should be covered, but they usually don't. (Sometimes they have.)

I think normally contactors have been covered as part of the pack warranty, so them not covering them is a new development. (Shoot they even cover the fuse replacement as part of the pack when they don't even have to drop the pack to replace it.)

Thank you @MP3Mike. I spent hours reading the warranties and still haven't found any distinction between "battery proper" "cell-block" or "battery pack". Almost started to think I was illiterate when this distinction appeared so obvious to others.

 

[MP3Mike]

Thank you @MP3Mike. I spent hours reading the warranties and still haven't found any distinction between "battery proper" "cell-block" or "battery pack". Almost started to think I was illiterate when this distinction appeared so obvious to others.

Yeah, I don't get people supporting Tesla on this. The warranty says "battery", not battery cells, or battery modules. (Or "expensive parts".) And in the parts catalog there is a single part number for the battery, and it contains the contactors. The whole unit comes with a single warranty where the terms cover the entire "battery", i.e. pack.

If they want some parts of the battery to be excluded from the warranty they need to add the exclusions to the warranty document. (And those exclusions would only be applicable for purchases after the changes to the warranty document.)

 

[Rocky_H]

Yeah, I don't get people supporting Tesla on this.

I don't think I would generally call it "supporting". It's pragmatic realism to save new people from wasting their time. That fight has already been fought, and it's decided. We all lost when it was ruled through arbitration, so it's just letting people know how it is, and that it won't be useful to spend a lot of time complaining about it here.

 

[MP3Mike]

I don't think I would generally call it "supporting". It's pragmatic realism to save new people from wasting their time. That fight has already been fought, and it's decided. We all lost when it was ruled through arbitration, so it's just letting people know how it is, and that it won't be useful to spend a lot of time complaining about it here.

Has contactors in the pack failing gone to arbitration? (I haven't seen Tesla refuse to cover these under warranty until now.)

I get what you are saying on the PCS in the 3/Y, but one arbitration case does not set a precedence. It is just a bad decision by one person. (IMO)

 

[mongo]

Yeah, I don't get people supporting Tesla on this. The warranty says "battery", not battery cells, or battery modules. (Or "expensive parts".) And in the parts catalog there is a single part number for the battery, and it contains the contactors. The whole unit comes with a single warranty where the terms cover the entire "battery", i.e. pack.

If they want some parts of the battery to be excluded from the warranty they need to add the exclusions to the warranty document. (And those exclusions would only be applicable for purchases after the changes to the warranty document.)

"The Tesla lithium-ion battery (the “Battery”)" is just that, the indivisible cell block.
As I showed, the contactors are called out as a separate part and @Olle pointed out the service procedure to replace them. The main BCM is also along with the rapid connect assembly.

 

[MP3Mike]

"The Tesla lithium-ion battery (the “Battery”)" is just that, the indivisible cell block.

Yeah, I'm not buying it. They call that part "HV battery":

What does the warranty cover? The "battery". You buy a single part number, for "the battery", it is covered by a single warranty, that has no exclusions or different terms for different parts contained inside the single part.

As I showed, the contactors are called out as a separate part and @Olle pointed out the service procedure to replace them. The main BCM is also along with the rapid connect assembly.

That would be like buying a replacement ICE engine that has a 4-year warranty, but are then told that the bearings, that came in it, are only warrantied for 1-year, because it is possible to replace them separately and that the 4-years only covers the block. No, that part, the engine, you bought is covered as a whole. (Unless the terms of the warranty call out differences, for portions of the part you bought.)

 

[mongo]

Yeah, I'm not buying it. They call that part "HV battery":
View attachment 1035146

What does the warranty cover? The "battery". You buy a single part number, for "the battery", it is covered by a single warranty, that has no exclusions or different terms for different parts contained inside the single part.



That would be like buying a replacement ICE engine that has a 4-year warranty, but are then told that the bearings, that came in it, are only warrantied for 1-year, because it is possible to replace them separately and that the 4-years only covers the block. No, that part, the engine, you bought is covered as a whole. (Unless the terms of the warranty call out differences, for portions of the part you bought.)

"The battery" is used as a placeholder in the warranty for "The Tesla lithium-ion battery", not as the unit commonly referred to as the battery i.e. the pack.

Yeah, I had started doing an ICE analogy earlier, then realized it didn't help my point. It is different in that ICE powertrain warranties cover having a running vehicle (mostly), but the battery and drive unit warranty only cover the big ticket items.

 

[MP3Mike]

"The battery" is used as a placeholder in the warranty for "The Tesla lithium-ion battery", not as the unit commonly referred to as the battery i.e. the pack.

Yeah, I had started doing an ICE analogy earlier, then realized it didn't help my point. It is different in that ICE powertrain warranties cover having a running vehicle (mostly), but the battery and drive unit warranty only cover the big ticket items.

So what exactly is covered? Just the cells? How about the bond wires to the module bus-plates? The BMB on the modules? The bus-bars connecting the modules? The vent valves? The pack casing itself? The master BMS? The cooling hoses/connectors inside? The wiring harnesses inside? The cooling tubes between the cells? etc.

None of that is called out as excluded from the HV battery warranty when you buy one:

(The * is to denote a shorter warranty for Roadster packs.)

"The Tesla lithium-ion battery" is the entire pack. It is singular, as in one thing. (If it was just the cells it would have to say "The Tesla lithium-ion batteries". Or are you saying that there is only one select cell inside the pack that is covered? Is it bright orange so we know which one it is? )

 

[mongo]

So what exactly is covered? Just the cells? How about the bond wires to the module bus-plates? The BMB on the modules? The bus-bars connecting the modules? The vent valves? The pack casing itself? The master BMS? The cooling hoses/connectors inside? The wiring harnesses inside? The cooling tubes between the cells? etc.

Parts that are not individually serviceable and require replacing the big chunk are covered under the big chunk warranty. If there isn't a service manual entry for it, it's included.

None of that is called out as excluded from the HV battery warranty when you buy one:

(The * is to denote a shorter warranty for Roadster packs.)

None of that is excluded from the original 4-year 50k new car warranty either...

"The Tesla lithium-ion battery" is the entire pack. It is singular, as in one thing. (If it was just the cells it would have to say "The Tesla lithium-ion batteries". Or are you saying that there is only one select cell inside the pack that is covered? Is it bright orange so we know which one it is? )

Battery = group of cells (Single cell battery is an affront to nature)

 

[MP3Mike]

Parts that are not individually serviceable and require replacing the big chunk are covered under the big chunk warranty.

Where in the parts warranty does it say that only a portion for the HV battery is covered for 4-years/50k miles? Nowhere. You are making stuff up.

 

[mongo]

Where in the parts warranty does it say that only a portion for the HV battery is covered for 4-years/50k miles? Nowhere. You are making stuff up.

I wasn't making that claim. I said the parts warranty had the same coverage as the new car warranty (which may be an overly generous interpretation)

The new car 4yr warranty covers all the parts in the pack.

Subject to separate coverage for certain parts and the exclusions and limitations described in this New Vehicle Limited Warranty, the Basic Vehicle Limited Warranty covers the repair or replacement necessary to correct defects in the materials or workmanship of any parts
manufactured or supplied by Tesla that occur under normal use for a period of 4 years or 50,000 miles (80,000 km), whichever comes first.

The replacement part 4yr warranty covers all the parts on the pack.

Subject to the exclusions and limitations described below, this Tesla Parts, Body & Paint Repair Limited Warranty covers the repair or replacement necessary to remedy any “failures” that are determined by Tesla to have occurred under normal use of Tesla-manufactured Parts and Used Parts that are approved or branded by Tesla and purchased directly from Tesla. At Tesla’s discretion, covered Parts may be repaired or replaced by a new or remanufactured Part, and any Part replaced under this Limited Warranty becomes the property of Tesla (subject to the customer’s inspection, upon request made prior to the repair). Used Parts may be repaired, replaced with a Used Part, or the purchase price may be refunded. Any Parts repaired or replaced under the Tesla New Vehicle Limited Warranty, Tesla Used Vehicle Limited Warranty, or an active Tesla Service Plan are covered for the duration of that applicable warranty or plan, and does not extend beyond that duration

The new car 8yr battery warranty covers "The Tesla lithium-ion battery" so years 5-8 have less coverage on a new car and none on a replacement pack.

 

[Olle]

We all lost when it was ruled through arbitration

Source?

 

[MP3Mike]

Parts that are not individually serviceable and require replacing the big chunk are covered under the big chunk warranty. If there isn't a service manual entry for it, it's included.

So, if Tesla designed a universal replacement module, and created a service manual entry for replacing it, and everything else in the pack then the 8-year warranty becomes worthless? (Expect on the newer vehicles that have a degradation threshold included.)

 

[mongo]

So, if Tesla designed a universal replacement module, and created a service manual entry for replacing it, and everything else in the pack then the 8-year warranty becomes worthless? (Expect on the newer vehicles that have a degradation threshold included.)

If that module cost $10k, then that module would be the reason the extended warranty existed and would be covered by said warranty. Just like the battery already does/is...

If Tesla made a new serviceable pack, there would be less need for an extended warranty, but it would still exist for piece of mind (but cost less internally, maybe, depending how much the sserviceability impacted failure rates and inital cost)

 

[MP3Mike]

If that module cost $10k, then that module would be the reason the extended warranty existed and would be covered by said warranty. Just like the battery already does/is...

So, if the module costs $9999.99 it would not be covered? Where is this dollar threshold declared?

 

[mongo]

So, if the module costs $9999.99 it would not be covered? Where is this dollar threshold declared?

I'm talking in general.
Look, I'd rather the warranty meant I'd have a full working powertrain for 8 years, but that doesn't seem to be what they are going for. The warranty exists to removing the fear of a large* bill at 6 years.

*for some value of large approximately equivilent to a pack replacement due to cell/BMS/bond wire/coolant tube/ other non-repairable failure.

 

[Rocky_H]

We all lost when it was ruled through arbitration

Source?

That started in this thread, approximately in this comment by @Yanquetino .

Power Conversion System (PCS) failure

Well, you should see the core charge on the estimate when they ask you to pay. If it's not there, or if it's small enough, definitely ask to take the parts. They assume you aren't keeping it and don't put the core charge on until you ask to keep the old parts. (At least that is how I have seen it.)

teslamotorsclub.com

You can follow a lot of the progress in his comments throughout that thread, and he linked to a personal web page narrating the saga here too:

Casteyanqui.com | Electric Vehicles | My Battery Warranty Dispute with Tesla

And the topic of the arbitration process itself did get split off into its own dedicated forum thread here:

Arbitration decision of my PCS dispute

I know that many forum members in this thread have been waiting to hear the outcome of my arbitration dispute with Tesla over our PCS breakdowns. I can report that yesterday I finally received notification that the arbitrator decided for Tesla —not for me. More specifically, the arbitrator...

teslamotorsclub.com