Yes: everyone has their own set of priorities and they make their own decisions based on them. Some people wish that others’ priorities aligned more closely with their own.Sorry, read the first page and skipped to the end.
Is there a TLDR version?
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Cancelling my reservation
- Thread starter TheMaverick
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- Model 3
Brando
Active Member
Francis Ford Coppola hid his EV1 (statute of limitations may apply, but I still don't know how he pulled it off) visited by Jay Leno
and GM response to "lack of EV1 demand" - will make you cry
Krugerrand
Meow
That’s not because of the 11s acceleration but because of all the drivers who don’t know how to a) move over a lane when they are obviously going to get to the same spot as the person merging or there are a lot of cars merging at once and b) that it’s okay to either speed up a bit or back off a bit and give room for the merger. Yes, even though it’s up to the merger to merge other drivers being dicks and/or oblivious to what’s happening around them is the bigger problem in general.
I was incredibly upset when Tesla postponed the Model 3 SR another year and created new configurations that were reprioritized ahead of the SR. I don't believe the SR will be available "early 2019". I'm not convinced Tesla will ever "need" to deliver a $35k car. The idea of the "affordable" car has turned in to a $50,000-$65,000 car. AWD, white interior, performance options likely coming before SR.
I couldn't wait forever. I've lost faith that Tesla will make the affordable car.
I waited to make sure I wasn't reacting emotionally. Regretably purchased a new ICE today. No other current electric car can satisfy our need for periodic long trips. I didn't want to max out spending because I would still like to get a Tesla some day if they ever make something less "premium".
I just cancelled my day 7 two year old Model 3 reservation.
I couldn't wait forever. I've lost faith that Tesla will make the affordable car.
I waited to make sure I wasn't reacting emotionally. Regretably purchased a new ICE today. No other current electric car can satisfy our need for periodic long trips. I didn't want to max out spending because I would still like to get a Tesla some day if they ever make something less "premium".
I just cancelled my day 7 two year old Model 3 reservation.
Affordable EV's can be found. Many people on this forum have done road trips in this model.
https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/727886545/overview/
https://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/3857557?ad_cid=6
https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/727886545/overview/
https://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/3857557?ad_cid=6
Sorry, read the first page and skipped to the end.
Is there a TLDR version?
Lots of whining and tantrum throwing from peeps who never took high school economics.
I want my 27,500k Model 3 with full tax credits NOW!
but but..
Tesla needs to sell highest margin cars first to reduce losses and cash burn. - DONT CARE
Tesla wants to give first opportunity to those who have supported them in the past making Model 3 possible. - DONT CARE
Tesla should let employees and enthusiast get the first cars as they would be more tolerant of first run issues. - DONT CARE
Tesla is production constrained at the moment.. can only make so many such and such and.. - DONT CARE. MAKE *MY* MODEL3 FIRST!
whitex
Well-Known Member
Cancellations will happen of course. I'm sure there are people who reserved the Model 3 planning for the $27,500 car. When it turns out that car is not available, it it only natural that they will cancel reservations. Why are people surprised? Time also matters, people need a car and can only wait so long. Once they purchase a new car, it may be many years before they are willing or able to spend money on a new one, so why keep the reservation? That also applies to people who wanted AWD - they may just say "I'll buy me an Audi or a BMW for the next 4 years, then come back to the Model 3" (and please, before I get flamed here, not everyone who buys Tesla's does so to be green - when Elon started Tesla he said it himself, very few people do, hence he set out to create a desirable car that people buy because they want it, not because it's electric).
Anyone who thought Tesla was going to convert 100% of their 400K reservations to sales perhaps fell under Elon's spell a little too hard.
Anyone who thought Tesla was going to convert 100% of their 400K reservations to sales perhaps fell under Elon's spell a little too hard.
AlanSqB
Dog Chauffeur
...and some people decided they didn’t like how the car turned out.
Don't make no promises you can't keep.
That's a good rule to live by. I am a total Tesla Fan Boy. I love my Roadster and in spite of misgivings about some of the features I think are stupid, I expect to love my Model 3. I accept the fact that Elon Musk is a terrible chrono-optimist and that his timeline predictions are unreliable.
BUT...
A lot of people stood in line for many, many hours on the promise of a $35K Tesla, and the implied promise of a $7,500 tax credit. The reasons Tesla cannot deliver on that are reasonable. But Musk should not have promised what he could not deliver. I remain firmly in the Tesla camp. But I can understand the people who will be angry that they were promised something that they may not get.
Tesla will definitely produce a $35K Model 3, but possibly not soon enough to get the tax credit. I think MXWing casts these people in the wrong light. I don't think it's "I want it and I don't care." It's "You made me a promise. I put down $1,000. And now I won't be able to afford the car." Such people have a legitimate gripe. They trusted Tesla and Tesla let them down because it made them a promise it could not keep.
Of course, Tesla may yet be able to keep that promise. If they can tool up to produce the SR version and make a decision that at the very least those Day-1 line-waiters have to get the opportunity to get a $35K car before the tax credit runs out. I don't know if this is possible. But if the tax credit runs out before these people get the chance to get the base model car then Tesla has broken its promise.
Don't make no promises you can't keep. Unless you really don't care about your reputation and your public image. Musk made a big mistake when he promised something he could not deliver, a $35K car before the expiration of the federal tax credit.
That's a good rule to live by. I am a total Tesla Fan Boy. I love my Roadster and in spite of misgivings about some of the features I think are stupid, I expect to love my Model 3. I accept the fact that Elon Musk is a terrible chrono-optimist and that his timeline predictions are unreliable.
BUT...
A lot of people stood in line for many, many hours on the promise of a $35K Tesla, and the implied promise of a $7,500 tax credit. The reasons Tesla cannot deliver on that are reasonable. But Musk should not have promised what he could not deliver. I remain firmly in the Tesla camp. But I can understand the people who will be angry that they were promised something that they may not get.
Tesla will definitely produce a $35K Model 3, but possibly not soon enough to get the tax credit. I think MXWing casts these people in the wrong light. I don't think it's "I want it and I don't care." It's "You made me a promise. I put down $1,000. And now I won't be able to afford the car." Such people have a legitimate gripe. They trusted Tesla and Tesla let them down because it made them a promise it could not keep.
Of course, Tesla may yet be able to keep that promise. If they can tool up to produce the SR version and make a decision that at the very least those Day-1 line-waiters have to get the opportunity to get a $35K car before the tax credit runs out. I don't know if this is possible. But if the tax credit runs out before these people get the chance to get the base model car then Tesla has broken its promise.
Don't make no promises you can't keep. Unless you really don't care about your reputation and your public image. Musk made a big mistake when he promised something he could not deliver, a $35K car before the expiration of the federal tax credit.
They can keep the promise. They chose not to do so. People are right to judge that as wrong.
It's quite possible they can't keep the promise and stay solvent. So the choice may not be as trivial as your statement reads.
N5329K
Active Member
"As well GM earned ire fair and square from EV aficionados via their rather brutal scrapping of the EV1 program (and literal scrapping of 1000+ cars, every single one in existence save a single one at the Smithsonian). Remember very negative reaction to that is the core of the genesis of Tesla. The existence of Tesla is a direct, explicit statement about that decision."
Yes and no. GM certainly earned its bad rep with EV folks for its bone headed scrapping program. People still hate them for that and maybe will never find a way to forgive, or trust them, again. But that really didn't figure prominently, or at all, in why Tesla was founded. The real reason: Tesla's founder went looking for a fun car to drive that didn't burn oil. Nobody was making one, so he decided, Why not me? The more he looked into the possibilities- available, inexpensive commodity batteries, a market segment willing to pay for an expensive car that was incredibly fun to drive, and a world that would be a better place with electrified transport- the better they seemed.
The rest is history (in the best sense).
Robin
Yes and no. GM certainly earned its bad rep with EV folks for its bone headed scrapping program. People still hate them for that and maybe will never find a way to forgive, or trust them, again. But that really didn't figure prominently, or at all, in why Tesla was founded. The real reason: Tesla's founder went looking for a fun car to drive that didn't burn oil. Nobody was making one, so he decided, Why not me? The more he looked into the possibilities- available, inexpensive commodity batteries, a market segment willing to pay for an expensive car that was incredibly fun to drive, and a world that would be a better place with electrified transport- the better they seemed.
The rest is history (in the best sense).
Robin
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
But did he? I specifically remember during all the Model 3 announcements thinking it was unusual he wasn't bringing up the federal tax credit, because Tesla has always factored that into the cost of ownership when talking about the S or the X. And then, of course, I realized it was because it was expiring and wouldn't be true for everyone.
He might have, but if he did, I missed it. But this forum sure did factor that in. We definitely did that. We amplified that message. Lots and lots of posts about it and timing. So I'm sure a large number of those wanting the base $35k model looked at timing and assumed (or hoped) that they'd get the credit, too. And then of course Tesla started with the higher optioned cars and dashed those hopes.
Obviously I could have missed Tesla announcing that the $35K model would be even cheaper with credits. But I just don't remember seeing/hearing that. And I do remember noting they weren't mentioning the credit when talking about the 3. (Apologies if I got that wrong, of course.)
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Update: @anticitizen13.7 confirms what I remember in his post below. No tax credit was promised by Elon. (Thanks, anti!)
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anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
Model 3 was never as inexpensive as people had hoped. The base price is $35,000, but that requires the buyer to choose solid black paint, which a lot of people just won't do. Black cars can get really hot inside during the summer in many parts of the world. Black cars look fantastic when clean, but show dirt and other blemishes very easily. The $1000 paint option upgrade is going to be almost a given for most buyers IMO. There's also a $1000 delivery/document charge. $30 for wheel center caps and lug nut covers for people who prefer the look of traditional alloy wheels and want to leave the aero covers off.
The Model 3 base sticker price is realistically $37,030, and around $40,000 OTD depending on local sales tax rates.
Many people also may not have $7500 in federal tax credit liability. A person with a family and plenty of existing tax breaks for dependent children and home mortgage interest deductions could easily have lower than $7500 in federal income tax. The credit is not refundable as far as I know, so much of it could be wasted.
I confess that I did not wait in line, because I wanted to know exactly what I would be getting at the 35k price point before I put down a deposit. Waiting in line was an act of faith.
This may cost Tesla at the lower end of the market, but the unfortunate reality is that it may not matter. Tesla makes more $ by converting BMW and Benz buyers than it does by converting Accord and Camry buyers.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
I checked the 2016 prototype reveal event video on YouTube, and $35k was indeed the price that Elon stated. No mention of tax credits.
In insisting that Tesla should stick to its original estimated schedule for the standard battery Model 3, many people seem to be overlooking that Tesla is running 6 months behind their estimates for ramping up production to 5000 cars per week and that the main source of the problem is battery pack production.
Tesla originally planned to reach 5000K cars per week by the end of 2017 and AFTER they had achieved that to introduce cars with second, smaller battery pack in early 2018.
Tesla has basically shifted that plan back six months with the 5K/week target now 6/30/2018, and the standard battery pack introduced in late 2018 instead of early 2018.
Given all the challenges Tesla has had ramping up battery production IMO it would be foolhardy to introduce a second battery pack now, when Tesla is still working out the kinks with producing the LR battery packs.
It makes much more sense to get battery production up and running smoothly with the LR packs and then apply the knowledge gained to producing the standard packs. This obviously was the original plan and given the challenges with pack production it makes more sense than ever to avoid unnecessary complications from manufacturing a second pack, which could result in an even slower ramp and fewer Model 3 customers getting their cars (and the benefit of tax credits).
Tesla originally planned to reach 5000K cars per week by the end of 2017 and AFTER they had achieved that to introduce cars with second, smaller battery pack in early 2018.
Tesla has basically shifted that plan back six months with the 5K/week target now 6/30/2018, and the standard battery pack introduced in late 2018 instead of early 2018.
Given all the challenges Tesla has had ramping up battery production IMO it would be foolhardy to introduce a second battery pack now, when Tesla is still working out the kinks with producing the LR battery packs.
It makes much more sense to get battery production up and running smoothly with the LR packs and then apply the knowledge gained to producing the standard packs. This obviously was the original plan and given the challenges with pack production it makes more sense than ever to avoid unnecessary complications from manufacturing a second pack, which could result in an even slower ramp and fewer Model 3 customers getting their cars (and the benefit of tax credits).
Dr. J
Active Member
Keep in mind the federal EV tax credit very d*** nearly disappeared in November when the House approved their version of tax reform. Between then and December when the final bill was approved, I became reconciled to it not being under my control. (I did write to my Congress person and I participated in the national effort to save the credit.) And it turns out that even with the tax credit in place, it's fully possible Elon won't be able to deliver enough cars for most (let alone all) line waiters to get the Model 3 version they want with a full $7,500 credit. Each of us has to make the best decision given what we know when the invite comes. I only hope more and better information becomes available soon (when does production of non-PUP, SR and dual motor start and when does tax credit phase out begin?). The rest is woulda, coulda, shoulda (Monday morning quarterbacking).
Msjulie
Active Member
I understand why some feel betrayed by the standard battery release delay. I also find these facts interesting regarding cost of cars in USA:
Average new car sale price in USA
- from cars.com: 2017, the average price on a new car ran $31,400 after incentives
- best selling vehicle (for years running) is the Ford 150 @ $27,610 base and can easily exceed $60,000 (usnews.com) ie the average truck for consumers (vs biz) is not 27k
I'm always surprised by the population of really big SUVs which are easily able to top 50-60k and more, so perhaps they are being leased. Regardless, folks have lower cost options and forgo them in preference to less efficient larger vehicles.
I'm lucky that we already have our 3 and I do think I understand at least some of the reasons for delay. Higher margins keeps the company afloat and at this point, Tesla is the only US auto manufacturer we'd entertain buying a car from so bit of fan boy. I'd rather everyone get what they want but I'd also rather Tesla continue as honestly I believe they have put the most pressure on car manufacturers world wide to get off fossil fuels. Well, and China being the (now) largest car market in the world and it's push for EVs.
Sorry - end small soapbox
Average new car sale price in USA
- from cars.com: 2017, the average price on a new car ran $31,400 after incentives
- best selling vehicle (for years running) is the Ford 150 @ $27,610 base and can easily exceed $60,000 (usnews.com) ie the average truck for consumers (vs biz) is not 27k
I'm always surprised by the population of really big SUVs which are easily able to top 50-60k and more, so perhaps they are being leased. Regardless, folks have lower cost options and forgo them in preference to less efficient larger vehicles.
I'm lucky that we already have our 3 and I do think I understand at least some of the reasons for delay. Higher margins keeps the company afloat and at this point, Tesla is the only US auto manufacturer we'd entertain buying a car from so bit of fan boy. I'd rather everyone get what they want but I'd also rather Tesla continue as honestly I believe they have put the most pressure on car manufacturers world wide to get off fossil fuels. Well, and China being the (now) largest car market in the world and it's push for EVs.
Sorry - end small soapbox
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