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Well sure, but that’s because Tesla went about creating their Supercharger network a decade ago when CCS wasn’t ready or capable enough for what the Model S needed. There would be relatively point in Rivian developing their own independent and separate DC charging communications protocol now. Rivian can do everything they need by using the CCS standard protocols or extending them slightly, if needed.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The 34 stall (+6 L2 stations) Geary station in SF was $795k. 16 are urban chargers, but the other 18 are V3. I know for a fact SF project valuations include everything (not only labor) although it's only a ballpark number (does not include any cost overruns later in the project).
Supercharger - San Francisco, CA - Geary Blvd. (LIVE 20 May 2021, 16 V3 + 18 Urban stalls)
Given Tesla has vertically integrated everything, their costs may not necessarily be able to be matched by new players that are just buying chargers from third parties (and also need the payment processing part, which Tesla has saved so far).
Mockingbird
Member
I don't think you know what you are looking at.
That's the cost for the contractor to install the Supercharger.
A huge portion of the cost of a DCFC station is the electrical upgrade required to bring power to the site.
We did just get the CCS adapter a couple weeks ago. We might make it down to Salida in August and could try it out then.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
There is no doubt that Tesla spends a LOT less on DCFC sites than what we read of CCS sites, but I'm hesitant to put numbers on the Tesla sites because I am not sure what is included in the permit.
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Yes, there is probably more cost from the utility, but how much is that really? Are you saying the utilities are charging almost $2 million per site? (Which is what would be necessary for what you say, that Tesla has spent more than $7.5B on the existing Superchargers, to be true.)
Mockingbird
Member
You don't really know, do you?
The cost of the utility upgrade could easily be half the total cost of the site if not more.
I would estimate the total cost of Supercharger per site at $0.5 million+
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Finally, you admit that you were wrong. ($500k/site * 3,500 sites = $1.75B.) So like I said Tesla has spent way less on their entire worldwide Supercharger network than the government is giving out to build chargers just in the US. (Less than 25% as much.)
I do understand that the entire $7.5B isn't gong to DCFC chargers, and I don't recall what percentage of it is.
Mockingbird
Member
I always estimated Superchargers at $500,000+ per site.
Your calculation is wrong because you assume that every site is $500,000K.
For example, there is no way that Supercharger at Harris Ranch is $500,000K
True, it is just an estimate, some sites will cost more, others will cost less. But the point is still valid, there is no way Tesla has spent $7.5B on the Supercharger network.
If you went back to 2012 and told them that there's $7.5 billion available in 2022, they'd probably do exactly the same thing they've already done. "A decade? We might not even be around by then if we don't get moving on fast chargers!"
Isn't the $7.5B also including a lot of more local chargers? L2s at various places? I thought the DCFC highway network was "only" about half of it? Of course, given the administrative overhead, this will likely be equivalent to ~2B for someone line EA or Tesla.
And, tbh, this isn't even talking about the 400V problem.
I think the idea for this hypothetical scenario is that the money would have been available in 2012.
Cynically, I do sometimes wonder if Tesla will be prioritized last for this money, though, even if they add CCS. After all, Tesla will build them anyway...
Mockingbird
Member
Anyhow, the point I was trying to make is that if public funding was available back in 2012 to build public charging stations, Tesla certainly would have used it to build the Supercharger.
Mockingbird
Member
I don’t know if you are intentionally trying to misread what I said or what.
Mockingbird
Member
No.
The DOT wants to use the entire fund to rollout fast chargers.
$5 billion will be handed out to states according to national hughway formula.
The rest ($2.5 billion) will be used to fill coverage gaps in rural and disadvantaged areas.
What is the 400V problem?
That’s how normal people would read it.I think the idea for this hypothetical scenario is that the money would have been available in 2012.
Who else would be competing?
FACT SHEET: Biden-Harris Administration Proposes New Standards for National Electric Vehicle Charging Network | The White House
Bipartisan Infrastructure Law Investments to Enable Families to Plug-In, Charge Up, and Drive Across America Today, the Biden-Harris Administration is announcing new steps to meet President Biden’s goal to build out the first-ever national network of 500,000 electric vehicle chargers along...
2.5B of that goes to "competitive grants to support community and corridor charging, improve local air quality, and increase EV charging access in underserved and overburdened communities". Its highly likely that some of these will be L2s or at least lower speed urban DCFC.
The proposed rules for the plan require "150kw", but do not specify a voltage. 200 amp stations meet this qualification, but will only provide ~80kw for vehicles like the F-150 Lightning and Cadillac Lyriq due to their 400 volt system.
I've seen no indication that these types of units will be disallowed.
Yes
Everyone. EVGo, EA, Shell Recharge, Circle K, and a host of other companies (including utilities) using Chargepoint as a service provider. Some of these companies are very adept at the kind of proposal writing that will be required.
Mockingbird
Member
Tesla Model 3 charges faster on an Electrify America charging station than on a Tesla V3 Supercharger
Governor Hochul Announces Free Electric Vehicle Fast Charging at Evolve NY Sites for July 4 Weekend would help those in NY. Be sure to check Plugshare first.
That is really interesting. I expected it to beat V2, but I didn't think it would catch to with the v3.
