diamond.g
Active Member
So cars and stations built in 2021 are guaranteed (assuming they support higher than 50kW charging) to support PnC, but no promise to retrofit any of the existing cars or charging stations. I guess you can't win them all.
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CCS for Model 3 in North America
- Thread starter Legen---dary
- Start date
MLKRMR
Member
To put it in perspective, you can travel and charge all over Europe with 1 or 2 cards or apps, if you choose the right ones.
There are a lot of providers, but almost all have roaming agreements, like mobile providers. And big providers like Ionity are starting with direct debit via NFC bank cards (which 99% of Europeans have already).
ralph142
Member
yes, I had a discussion with the whole foods folks and asked why not include a j1172 as well. they referred me to their vender, who of course (as electrify america) won't go there and he sent me a whole long screed about how I should be incensed with tesla for not having a converter, and by the way his mom parks overnight at j1772 and/or tesla stations and so no one else gets to use them, blah blah blah. I hope their engineering is better than their pr. As though the same thing can't happen at their stations, lol. The other station in town is by a starbucks, is expensive, and my impression from driving by it commonly is that its often out of service.
I'll just take this opportunity to point out that California != The USA.
doghousePVD
My grandfather’s car
ALL the CCS stalls in Rhode Island are 50 kw max, and quite a few are only 24 kw. Many are not really accessible,since they are at car dealerships which are often unfriendly to competing brands, and closed (fenced) off hours and weekends. The Tesla SC is 120 kw. If one includes all the destination chargers there are more Tesla chargers. Not that much difference between 17 kw and 24kw.
Eno Deb
Active Member
That may be the case in your specific location, but it's not a technical limitation. Most newer CCS chargers (including all Electrify America chargers) support 150kW, and some up to 350kW.
seattlite2004
Active Member
Tesla Destination Chargers are just Level 2 chargers...right? Not sure if Tesla Destination Chargers are included in this graphic...but there seems to be a bunch of J1722 chargers in the United States. Wonder if there are indeed MORE Tesla Destination Chargers:
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Eno Deb
Active Member
Yes, they are. They usually provide between 6 and 16kW.
If you select "Tesla" as connector, that should be the number of destination chargers (3535 stations, 7845 outlets).
They are, but...
Destination chargers usually have more power available than typical J1772s do - and Tesla installed chargers are 2-3x the power of the vast majority of other EVs to take advantage of it. (most modern EVs have 6-7 kW chargers - some still have 3.3 kW. Tesla ships 12kW by default, and has a 17 kW version that was optional, then standard on big battery cars - not sure if it's still included in any.)
So while techincally level 2, and certainly not something you want to rely on during a meal stop on a road trip, they usually get you significantly further than level 2 on other EVs would.
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seattlite2004
Active Member
I really hope Tesla will release a CCS adapter for Model 3. Here in Vancouver, CCS chargers pop up everywhere, including on street. BC Hydro is replacing some street parallel parking spots with CCS fast chargers. And on top of that, charging is free. As much as I love superchargers and I will not avoid using them just because there is a fee, I can't help but feel jealous and a bit frustrated when I see the CCS chargers, especially one, right in front of my office 
A few days ago there was a Model S charging there and I gasped, but then remembered that there is an adapter for Model S
A few days ago there was a Model S charging there and I gasped, but then remembered that there is an adapter for Model S
I don't know how this discussion drifted into a 'this plug is better than that plug'.
The OP made a very good point about Model 3s (all Tesla cars for that matter) do not have access to a very large number of CCS charging stations. An adapter could make this possible and it would be a huge advantage. That's all.
The point isn't that many CCS stations are currently limited to 50 kW. That's still 50 kW more than nothing or 44 kW more than the average L2 charger. I have been using my CADeMO adpater for 4 years with my Model S and it's been a blessing in so many situations. I charged at 5o kW on CHADeMO while there was a 3-4 hour wait at a Supercharger.
There is absolutely zero drawback of Tesla offering a CCS adapter. It would give all Tesla owners more options, divert some charging away from Superchargers and make Tesla some money and us happy.
The OP made a very good point about Model 3s (all Tesla cars for that matter) do not have access to a very large number of CCS charging stations. An adapter could make this possible and it would be a huge advantage. That's all.
The point isn't that many CCS stations are currently limited to 50 kW. That's still 50 kW more than nothing or 44 kW more than the average L2 charger. I have been using my CADeMO adpater for 4 years with my Model S and it's been a blessing in so many situations. I charged at 5o kW on CHADeMO while there was a 3-4 hour wait at a Supercharger.
There is absolutely zero drawback of Tesla offering a CCS adapter. It would give all Tesla owners more options, divert some charging away from Superchargers and make Tesla some money and us happy.
srs5694
Active Member
That depends on the car. As I understand it, Model 3s with SR and MR batteries top out at 7.7kW on Level 2 EVSEs (even Tesla's Wall Connector). The LR Model 3 and most other Teslas top out at 11.5kW. Current-production non-Tesla EVs can mostly handle 7.7kW, although some older ones, and PHEVs, often topped out at 3.3kW.
Also, some non-Tesla Level 2 EVSEs are capable of delivering similar charge rates, although most public stations top out at 6-7kW, so you'd have to get pretty lucky to find something faster.
In sum, although Tesla does hold a lead in Level 2 charging speeds over competing brands, I don't think that lead is as great as you're suggesting.
Judging by PlugShare, most Tesla Destination Chargers are at hotels, with a significant minority at restaurants and a few at workplaces. I guess if you were desperate and lucky enough to find one, you could stop for a meal somewhere with a Destination Charger and, if you don't have an SR or MR Model 3, get more charge than you would at a typical public J1772 EVSE. For an overnight stay at a hotel, I'm not sure there'd be much difference unless you had a Model S or Model X with a 100kWh battery and it was nearly drained; or if you needed to split the charging time with another traveler.
As for "get you significantly further," that depends on the car's energy efficiency, not just the charge rate. Teslas seem to have the advantage compared to competing EVs of similar size, but as of yet, most non-Tesla EVs are smaller than a Model 3. That makes comparisons somewhere between difficult and pointless. If you want a big EV, you pretty much have to get a Tesla; and if you want something small, you can't get a Tesla. If you're adaptable in terms of car size, you could compare, say, a Tesla Model X and a Chevy Bolt; but then the efficiency award goes to the Bolt, enabling you to get further with any given rate of charge. All this is starting to change, of course; Tesla has been releasing smaller cars over time, and other manufacturers are starting to show an interest in bigger EVs.
Because certain folks in the thread want Tesla to replace the current Tesla plug with a CCS plug on some or all cars, and some of us disagree with that plan.
I don't think there's anyone here who has expressed any concerns with Tesla offering a CCS adapter, which I do think is a good idea.
dennis
Model S Plaid
Not so fast. Here is the current status of the Electrify America network, from their Locate a Charger page and one of their latest press releases:
There are now 156 EA DCFC locations live and 173 identified as Coming Soon for a total of 329 vs. a plan of 484 by July 2019, the end of their first $500M "investment period". There are still only 8 locations live in California. Think about that. EA is required to spend 40% of their penalty dollars in California where more that half of EV's are sold and they have only managed to get 8 charging locations live in the first 34 months of their operation.
I have also noticed some backtracking in EA's latest public statements:
https://elam-cms-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/inline-files/Electrify America Collaborates with Nine New Companies to Host Charging Stations_vAS.pdf
"Electrify America plans to install or have under development 484 charging station sites featuring more than 2,000 ultra-fast chargers by July 2019."
"Under development" used to say "under construction" which is clearly not possible in the next two months since half of the Coming Soon locations I have visited are yet to start construction.
"In the first two phases of the company’s investments ending December 31, 2021, Electrify America’s DC fast charging stations are expected to be located in 29 metro areas, along high-traffic corridors in 46 states including the District of Columbia and two cross-country routes."
This statement used to be about Phase 1 which ends July 2019 , not 1+2 which ends December 2021. By the end of 2021 EA only plans to have two cross-country routes. Tesla currently has 5: Interstates 90, 80, 70, 40 and 10. And it not clear based on the current map that I-5, the fastest route from SF to LA, will be enabled by the end of 2019.
Let's give EA the benefit of the doubt and assume they reach their goal of 484 locations live by the end of 2019. In terms of the number of locations, that puts them 2 years behind Tesla supercharger locations in North America, which passed that number in December 2017. Today Tesla has 709 locations live in the US and is adding more every month. I'm glad Tesla continues to invest in their proprietary network obviating my need to access the 24/50kW currently installed CCS chargers nor the Coming Soon EA network.
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doghousePVD
My grandfather’s car
My point is that the actual build out, not PR and fantasy BS from dieselgate criminals, is very limited.
Electrify America shuts down most of its high-powered EV chargers
according to this https://elam-cms-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/inline-files/Electrify America Announcement on Partial Network Shutdown 1.25.2019.pdf there are only 2 working CCS stations in California. Woohoo!
I count only 19 actual operating EA CCS chargers now. No cars in the US can charge at the theoretical 350 kW rate.
In comparison, Tesla has OPENED 23 new chargers in 2019 alone.
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Eno Deb
Active Member
They shut them down for a few days while they were investigating a potential safety issue with the cables. They have long been turned on again.Source? They recently reported that 100 locations are now operational, and a total of about 480 are in various stages of construction.
And, BTW, a station in your neck of the woods (Providence) will open in summer. Given that there is only a single supercharger location in RI, you should be happy about that.
Tesla could have 100x more connections than CCS, but if a CCS one is where you need one and Tesla is not... In my case it would be great since there is a new 350KW by my house and the nearest Tesla charger is 30+ minutes away... I would definitely prefer Tesla to put a supercharger near me, but I doubt that will happen any time soon (not on their coming soon(ish) map).
Which is where the "why not both?" argument comes in.
If Tesla sticks to their plan not to make Superchargers a profit center, and if they've already worked out the firmware needed for S and X to use either charger in Europe, selling an adapter here as well seems like an easy choice.
I think it'll happen late this year or early next, but we'll see.
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