CCS for Model 3 in North America

[David99]

Totally agree. CS is the standard, there are more CCS stations than superchargers in the US alreay and with the massive amount of money Electrify America has available to spend, it's silly to keep pushing the proprietary Tesla plug.

Yes Tesla was the pioneer and built an amazing charging network when no one else did. I will forever thank Tesla for doing so. But things are moving in a different direction now.

 

[wk057]

@wk057 would likely know

It's definitely not impossible to make an adapter, but without the ability to modify things on the car side (fleet wide) it would require a battery-powered adapter with HV switching, precharge, etc... likely a pretty bulky thing, worse than the CHAdeMO adapter. Not likely to happen on the aftermarket.

Tesla, on the other hand, can make mods on the car side in software to make a small mostly passive adapter possible.

There are more CCS stations than superchargers in the US already

Citation needed? I'm honestly not 100% sure if this is true or not. Would be interesting if it were. Sounds like someone fluffing the numbers a bit (like, where a single CCS connector at a mall is counted the same as a 16 stall Tesla station). I checked a few maps, and there are basically no CCS chargers anywhere near me, let alone enough to do a cross country trip reliably, or even some of the routes that I take regularly.

Tesla's proprietary setup is far better than CCS in nearly every way anyway. If it weren't mandated in Europe, I doubt Tesla would have gone the route they did with the Model 3 and chargers there. CCS is a hack on J1772... literally add an appendage to the bottom of a J1772 connector for DC, over complicate the protocol for no reason whatsoever, and call it a day. It's clunky and dumb in comparison to the Tesla connector and overall setup.

No thanks. Will stick with Tesla's connector.

 

[Eno Deb]

Tesla's proprietary setup is far better than CCS in nearly every way anyway. If it weren't mandated in Europe, I doubt Tesla would have gone the route they did with the Model 3 and chargers there. CCS is a hack on J1772... literally add an appendage to the bottom of a J1772 connector for DC, over complicate the protocol for no reason whatsoever, and call it a day. It's clunky and dumb in comparison to the Tesla connector and overall setup.

Well, I disagree. If Tesla used CCS, we wouldn't need an adapter to use public L2 chargers, and Tesla would have a potential path to 350kW charging in future vehicles. The Tesla connector has likely topped out with Supercharger v3 since the pins are smaller and have less separation than the DC pins in CCS. And the standardized "plug & charge" mechanism of CCS would allow us to charge without cards or similar across different networks rather than just Tesla's in the future. I don't really see any way in which the Tesla connector is superior except perhaps the looks (but I care about that as much as I care about the looks of a gas pump handle ).

 

[David99]

Citation needed? I'm honestly not 100% sure if this is true or not. Would be interesting if it were.

Just did a count of a 50 mile radius of where I live (Los Angeles). Numbers are 22 vs 26 for CCS.
Number of stalls/plugs Tesla is definitely leading. Of course that counts ultimately. But CCS is being installed at a faster rate right now than Tesla puts in Superchargers. To be fair, Tesla put in Superchargers in places where no one else wants to put in a charger, but is much needed for cross country trips. But that's beside the topic of plugs.

I wasn't aware that CCS is such an inferior protocol. I much prefer the smaller Tesla plug for sure.

I think the issue is that no one benefits from two standards. It's a waste of resources and confusing and counter to EV adoption. As much as Tesla said they are open to other manufacturers to join the Supercharger network, that was just a marketing stunt. No auto maker is going to join a network of a competitor that has full control over it.

 

[MP3Mike]

Just did a count of a 50 mile radius of where I live (Los Angeles). Numbers are 22 vs 26 for CCS.
Number of stalls/plugs Tesla is definitely leading. Of course that counts ultimately. But CCS is being installed at a faster rate right now than Tesla puts in Superchargers. To be fair, Tesla put in Superchargers in places where no one else wants to put in a charger, but is much needed for cross country trips. But that's beside the topic of plugs.

Just for the US: this month Tesla has opened sites with 80 stalls, they have sites with 206 stalls that started construction, and another 81 stalls that entered the permitting phase. And that is just in one, incomplete, month. (And only things that have been crowd-sourced, there could be more that we don't know about.)

How many CCS stalls were added in the last 30 days?

 

[Eno Deb]

I really see no point in making this a contest. As far as I'm concerned, any new chargers are welcome and potentially give me more options. By the end of cycle 1 (this year), Electrify America plans to have 484 locations with over 2000 chargers. I'd like to be able to use them. Even here in CA with its well developed infrastructure there would be a lot of value in this since the superchargers are often full.

 

[MrMassTransit]

No thanks. Will stick with Tesla's connector.

I agree. I love the Tesla connector. That being said, I do think they should produce a CCS adapter. That gets them the best of both worlds. There are locations where CCS chargers are present but there's a significant gap in the Supercharger network.

If Tesla moved completely to J1772/CCS, I wonder if that would curtail their desire to provide subsidized destination charger installs and the like. To a certain degree, having a proprietary connector gives them an incentive to invest in their charging network more than they might otherwise.

But as I said on another post in this thread, creating the adapter will give owners significant additional flexibility and an even greater advantage over the charging network of competitors. Not only would they have the largest charging network, they'd have the largest proprietary plus access to most public chargers.

 

[srs5694]

there are more CCS stations than superchargers in the US already

Citation needed? I'm honestly not 100% sure if this is true or not.

I just checked on PlugShare. I zoomed out so the map covered the entire continental United States plus parts of Canada and Mexico. It reports 248 Tesla Supercharger locations and 424 CCS locations. (The exact figures depend on how the map is centered and zoomed, so you may get slightly different numbers if you try it.) That said, the Tesla locations are all (I think) multi-stall sites, whereas a lot of the CCS locations have a single stall. I don't see an easy way to get a summary of the total number of stalls out of PlugShare, so I don't know how big a factor that is, but my guess is that there must be at least twice as many Supercharger stalls as CCS stalls. As others have said, the utility of the locations is also important; CCS installations cluster around cities rather than along inter-city highways, so CCS is less useful for long-distance travel.

All of this is very dynamic, of course; both Tesla and all the CCS/CHAdeMO network operators are installing new stations. My impression is that CCS is catching up with Supercharger and is likely to eventually surpass it, but I haven't dug into the numbers deeply enough to say that's certainly true.

Tesla's proprietary setup is far better than CCS in nearly every way anyway. If it weren't mandated in Europe, I doubt Tesla would have gone the route they did with the Model 3 and chargers there. CCS is a hack on J1772... literally add an appendage to the bottom of a J1772 connector for DC, over complicate the protocol for no reason whatsoever, and call it a day. It's clunky and dumb in comparison to the Tesla connector and overall setup.

Just because something is technically superior doesn't mean it will win out in the marketplace. VHS beat out Betamax (until VCRs died because of DVDs, DVRs, and other technologies), but in the 1980s and 1990s, almost all videophiles preferred Betamax. This is, in some ways, a good analogy, since Betamax was pushed mainly by one company (Sony), whereas VHS was created and promoted by a multi-company group. Sony and their token partners simply couldn't capture enough market share to dominate the VCR industry, despite having a superior format. Tesla and the Supercharger network may be headed down that same path. (Note the conditional "may" -- I'm not trying to say that Supercharger is definitely doomed; but if I had to place a bet on one DC fast charger standard being dominant in North America in 10 or 20 years, it would be CCS, not Supercharger or CHAdeMO.)

As a consumer, although I agree that Tesla's connector is preferable to either a CCS or a CHAdeMO connector, the fact that I'm tied to Tesla for DC fast charging makes me a bit nervous. Tesla could go under, raise their SuperCharger prices to a ridiculous level, or be affected by a cyberattack (or less sinister computer failure) that brings down their network, and then I'd be inconvenienced or even stranded, if I happened to be on a road trip when it happened. With a CCS or CHAdeMO adapter, I'd be able to get home without too much added time, or even switch to an alternate supplier of electricity. I'd trade a little convenience for that flexibility.

 

[seattlite2004]

Not sure how accurate this is, but it looks like CCS DC Fast Charge has more Stations, but Tesla has more outlets:
Alternative Fuels Data Center: Electric Vehicle Charging Station Locations

 

[Saghost]

I just checked on PlugShare. I zoomed out so the map covered the entire continental United States plus parts of Canada and Mexico. It reports 248 Tesla Supercharger locations and 424 CCS locations. (The exact figures depend on how the map is centered and zoomed, so you may get slightly different numbers if you try it.) That said, the Tesla locations are all (I think) multi-stall sites, whereas a lot of the CCS locations have a single stall. I don't see an easy way to get a summary of the total number of stalls out of PlugShare, so I don't know how big a factor that is, but my guess is that there must be at least twice as many Supercharger stalls as CCS stalls. As others have said, the utility of the locations is also important; CCS installations cluster around cities rather than along inter-city highways, so CCS is less useful for long-distance travel.

All of this is very dynamic, of course; both Tesla and all the CCS/CHAdeMO network operators are installing new stations. My impression is that CCS is catching up with Supercharger and is likely to eventually surpass it, but I haven't dug into the numbers deeply enough to say that's certainly true.



Just because something is technically superior doesn't mean it will win out in the marketplace. VHS beat out Betamax (until VCRs died because of DVDs, DVRs, and other technologies), but in the 1980s and 1990s, almost all videophiles preferred Betamax. This is, in some ways, a good analogy, since Betamax was pushed mainly by one company (Sony), whereas VHS was created and promoted by a multi-company group. Sony and their token partners simply couldn't capture enough market share to dominate the VCR industry, despite having a superior format. Tesla and the Supercharger network may be headed down that same path. (Note the conditional "may" -- I'm not trying to say that Supercharger is definitely doomed; but if I had to place a bet on one DC fast charger standard being dominant in North America in 10 or 20 years, it would be CCS, not Supercharger or CHAdeMO.)

As a consumer, although I agree that Tesla's connector is preferable to either a CCS or a CHAdeMO connector, the fact that I'm tied to Tesla for DC fast charging makes me a bit nervous. Tesla could go under, raise their SuperCharger prices to a ridiculous level, or be affected by a cyberattack (or less sinister computer failure) that brings down their network, and then I'd be inconvenienced or even stranded, if I happened to be on a road trip when it happened. With a CCS or CHAdeMO adapter, I'd be able to get home without too much added time, or even switch to an alternate supplier of electricity. I'd trade a little convenience for that flexibility.

Given that supercharge.info shows 634 open Supercharger locations in the U.S. alone, I think there's a problem with your methodology.

A CCS adapter is a good idea. I think we'll see one by the end of the year, after they have the European one in wide distribution.

Giving up a superior technical solution and a market lead to install a standard established by the folks that didn't want to build EVs that is worse for the end user in multiple measurable ways and presumably more expensive to build (more material, larger) is not.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Totally agree. CS is the standard, there are more CCS stations than superchargers in the US alreay and with the massive amount of money Electrify America has available to spend, it's silly to keep pushing the proprietary Tesla plug.

Yes Tesla was the pioneer and built an amazing charging network when no one else did. I will forever thank Tesla for doing so. But things are moving in a different direction now.

CS is _a_ standard. It's not _the_ standard. The USA does not have an official charging standard.

I expect a CCS adapter to be released, and a CHAdeMO adapter also.

Tesla is working on its CCS adapter for European Model S and X.
I'd expect that already having experience with a CCS adapter for Europe, it won't be a big deal to have a CCS adapter for the USA.

I'd expect that it's working on a CHAdeMO adapter for Model 3 in Japan (unless it's going to add a CHAdeMO port).

Tesla could have adapters for both CCS and CHAdeMO this year.

 

[Eno Deb]

Giving up a superior technical solution and a market lead to install a standard established by the folks that didn't want to build EVs that is worse for the end user in multiple measurable ways and presumably more expensive to build (more material, larger) is not.

I don't get it. How is CCS technically inferior or "worse for the end user" than the Tesla connector?

 

[ralph142]

around me anyway, all the ccs and chademo stations are single stall installations at shopping centers. I would guess that they'll be used to top off while stopped doing other things, not really the same model as the sc distribution.

 

[seattlite2004]

around me anyway, all the ccs and chademo stations are single stall installations at shopping centers. I would guess that they'll be used to top off while stopped doing other things, not really the same model as the sc distribution.

Looks like a DC Fast Charger just opened up near Whole Foods in Bellingham, 2 stalls, and Electrify America is adding some 4 stall DC Fast Charging locations further south of Bellingham...glad to see more DCFC locations along the I5 in the PNW

 

[Saghost]

I don't get it. How is CCS technically inferior or "worse for the end user" than the Tesla connector?

Mostly it's a lot more awkward and fiddly. Tesla deliberately designed their plug to fit in the hand and have a lot of rotational centering, because putting your hand where you want it to go is natural, and with the centering you don't have to line it up very precisely.

CCS is big enough that the plug has to be put in front of your hand, generally at an angle, and you have to line it up carefully. Many cars put additional covers offer the CCS DC pins that you have to remove separately.

Tesla sized the pins in their plug for the expected loads on each line. J1772 that CCS is based on didn't - the ones that normally carry no real current are bigger than Tesla's, while the big ones that matter are smaller.

I've read of a bunch of failures of J1772 chargeports, often including actual broken pins and plastic pieces breaking off; I've read far fewer problems with Tesla's ports, despite a larger number covered by the forums I frequent.

And so far, Tesla is offering significantly higher current from their smaller, easier to use connectors. The much vaunted 350kW CCS chargers are only at 1000V, so they're providing barely half the current of the latest 250 kW v3 supercharger that operates at 400V or so.

 

[diamond.g]

Well, I disagree. If Tesla used CCS, we wouldn't need an adapter to use public L2 chargers, and Tesla would have a potential path to 350kW charging in future vehicles. The Tesla connector has likely topped out with Supercharger v3 since the pins are smaller and have less separation than the DC pins in CCS. And the standardized "plug & charge" mechanism of CCS would allow us to charge without cards or similar across different networks rather than just Tesla's in the future. I don't really see any way in which the Tesla connector is superior except perhaps the looks (but I care about that as much as I care about the looks of a gas pump handle ).

Has any CCS Stall provider said they were going to support the plug and charge spec of CCS yet? Based on Bjorn and News Coulomb videos the RF tag or app thing is really inconvenient.

 

[Eno Deb]

Mostly it's a lot more awkward and fiddly. Tesla deliberately designed their plug to fit in the hand and have a lot of rotational centering, because putting your hand where you want it to go is natural, and with the centering you don't have to line it up very precisely.

CCS is big enough that the plug has to be put in front of your hand, generally at an angle, and you have to line it up carefully.

I have used CCS on a Chevy Bolt. It's a complete non-issue. You plug it in, it charges.

Tesla sized the pins in their plug for the expected loads on each line. J1772 that CCS is based on didn't - the ones that normally carry no real current are bigger than Tesla's, while the big ones that matter are smaller.

? The CCS DC pins are bigger and have more separation than Tesla's combined AC/DC pins.

Just being able to use public L2 chargers without an adapter would be a big usability advantage in my book ...

Has any CCS Stall provider said they were going to support the plug and charge spec of CCS yet? Based on Bjorn and News Coulomb videos the RF tag or app thing is really inconvenient.

Electrify America and Ionity, for example. It will actually be mandatory starting next year per the CCS 2.0 spec.

 

[Saghost]

I have used CCS on a Chevy Bolt. It's a complete non-issue. You plug it in, it charges.
? The CCS DC pins are bigger and have more separation than Tesla's combined AC/DC pins.

Just being able to use public L2 chargers without an adapter would be a big usability advantage in my book ...
Electrify America and Ionity, for example. It will actually be mandatory starting next year per the CCS 2.0 spec.

I spent five years with a Volt before my Tesla.

Yes, J1772 and CCS are perfectly usable.

Yes, Tesla's plug is sturdier and easier to use with less care required.

 

[Eno Deb]

I spent five years with a Volt before my Tesla.

Yes, J1772 and CCS are perfectly usable.

I had a plugin hybrid too. Never a problem with the plug.

Yes, Tesla's plug is sturdier

Especially when it freezes in the charge port.

 

[BrotherSmoke]

I hope the adapter comes soon. It's pretty frustrating to find most chargers out there only have a single J1772 cable, and it's always in use.
Plus l2 charging is so slow, even if it's usually free. I would gladly pay for faster charging.

Living in an apartment is a bit frustrating