Charging Station standards

[Eberhard]

anyway, at the long term, public charging will be inductive.

 

[Norbert]

absolutly 'no go' for europe , there is (still) only one option :

The Mennekes standard will also have a larger combo plug, with additional large pins for higher speed DC.

 

[Norbert]

By the way, have any car manufacturers announced that they intend to offer this SAE DC socket?

No, no announcements yet, but SAE made a point of collaborating with IEEE for faster results, and offering the standard (or so) for first quarter 2012. So I'd guess something will happen by then, unless they just want to point out that they won't hold up things anymore.

 

[Doug_G]

anyway, at the long term, public charging will be inductive.

I sincerely doubt Level III charging will ever be inductive.

 

[TEG]

Then what's the point? Surely having fewer plugs on a charging station is also a goal as well as reducing the number of sockets on the car?

I think the point is that a US standards committee wants to have a US standard. Functionally, I don't think this is a major breakthrough over CHAdeMO. Although, it does make the "combo socket" a little smaller than the J1772+CHAdeMO we see on the Leaf.
If all the charging current comes off of the two new DC pins, what is the point of the AC pins on the "host" J1772 section? Does the DC quick charger even energize them? (I thought maybe for the "above 80% top off", but maybe not.)
As was pointed out before, it looks like the new DC pins would block you from trying to plug that assembly into an AC only J1772 socket.

...If the intention was to design something completely incompatible with the Leaf...

 

[Eberhard]

with new lithium chemistry and the ability to be charged within 5-6 minutes brings even the need for a real fast charge with power up to 1 MW? How can this been handled and done? 1 MW = 1000V 1000A on DC How will those sockets look like?

 

[donauker]

As was pointed out before, it looks like the new DC pins would block you from trying to plug that assembly into an AC only J1772 socket.

I would certainly hope so! I would imagine that both the owners of the high power DC chargers and the owners of vehicles with Level III DC charging capability would become very frustrated to find these chargers tied up for hours on end by Leaf drivers charging at 3.3kW.

 

[TEG]

Maybe someone resourceful will build a J1772 extender that lets you adapt the big plug to still plug into the old small portion.
(Basically just a tube with the 5 pins extended.)

That is, if the AC pins are energized.

We know that people try to adapt their vehicles charging to whatever they can hook into. We have people opening up breaker panels to connect direct, use old Avcon->NEMA14-50->Tesla adapters and such.

 

[qwk]

There are too many connector types as it is. This only adds to the confusion. Unless you are an enthusiast, all of these different standards/connector types will make your head explode. Not good for the publics perception of ev's.

 

[dpeilow]

I think we'll see gen 2 vehicles and later model years modify their inlets slightly to be able to accept this plug, even in AC mode. It's still a waste of the charger though. Any reason why e.g. the LEAF couldn't have a CHAdeMO alongside the combo SAE connector and make use of the DC side of J1772 too?

As for who will use it first... well the timing and power level certainly fits Model S.

 

[qwk]

As for who will use it first... well the timing and power level certainly fits Model S.

I thought Tesla was going to use a proprietery connector with adapters?

 

[TEG]

...Any reason why e.g. the LEAF couldn't have a CHAdeMO alongside the combo SAE connector and make use of the DC side of J1772 too?...

I don't think it is quite "public knowledge" if the signaling protocols are similar enough to make such a "piggyback" arrangement feasible.
Besides the Leaf already has a jumbo charge port, and adding the SAE DC too would really be pushing it.

There are too many connector types as it is. This only adds to the confusion. Unless you are an enthusiast, all of these different standards/connector types will make your head explode. Not good for the public's perception of EVs.

+1

Hopefully Tesla has been quiet on this topic because they have devised something so brilliant that the whole industry will consolidate around their answer.
(But I worry that we will have 'yet another' semi-proprietary connector type to consider.)

 

[TEG]

[Wacky idea]

Perhaps cars should just come with five J1772 AC sockets. If you pull into a large lot with nobody using it you just plug in as many J-plugs as will reach your parking spot? 5x30Ax240V=33kW...
Then if someone else pulls up in another spot they get to move as many cables as can reach their spot.

I have had many occasions where I stopped at an otherwise empty parking garage and used one of the many J1772s while the others sat idle.
The cables tend to be long enough to reach multiple spots.

 

[Doug_G]

Or maybe Tesla's been mysterious about their connector because all along they've been hoping this thing would get adopted and solve the DC fast charge connector problem for them...

 

[TEG]

Dutch EV charging connector product brochure:

http://www.ratio.nl/files/Ratio_EVcharging.pdf

 

[efxjim]

If the signaling occurs on the 2 DC pins before charging you could have 2 different plugs. A simple two pin Dc fast charge plug and a J1772 plug.

 

[TEG]

I don't think they put signalling on the power pins...
http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/earthobservationsSCC/IEEE_SAE_J1772_Update_10_02_08_Gery_Kissel.pdf

DC Fast Charge Systems - SAE
Based off the AC charging standard
Interfaces are the same as AC standard with the addition DC contacts and serial data link between vehicle and off-board charger

The fundamental difference between the SAE and JARI/TEPCO fast charge systems is the type of ground used between the charger and vehicle
SAE uses an “earth” ground strategy while JARI/TEPCO uses a “reference” ground strategy

 

[Norbert]

I don't think they put signalling on the power pins...

While this article has the same pic as others, it seem to have more info (Aug 12th, 2011):

http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/10128

As far as I can understand, specifically smart grid communication happens via "Broadband over Powerline" (whatever that exactly means):

SAE J1772 goes further still by uniquely defining communications between an EV/PHEV, off-board charger, and the smart grid. Power Line Communications (PLC) is defined in SAE J1772 as the technology for enabling these vehicle-to-grid communications, without requiring changes such as the addition of another pin to the coupler architecture.

That's where IEEE comes in. PLC implementations from both the HD-PLC Alliance and HomePlug Powerline Alliance are based on IEEE 1901-2010, the world's most mature, robust, and advanced Broadband over Powerline standard. And the IEEE 1901 Inter-System Protocol prevents interference when the different PLC implementations are operated within close proximity of one another.

 

[jaanton]

I thought Tesla was going to use a proprietery connector with adapters?

I think CARB is going to mandate J1772-2010. Look for a comment period starting early September.

2009 Zero Emission Vehicle Program Review

http://www.arb.ca.gov/regact/2011rulemakingcalendar.pdf

 

[TEG]

http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/10128

...The drive toward an SAE J1772 combo solution illustrates the need for the strategic partnership recently forged by the IEEE-SA and SAE—and, more broadly, the coordination across historically disparate technology spaces and organizations that is demanded by the smart grid...

Hmm... We must embrace the new SAE 'combo' standard because the "smart grid demands it"? Resistance is futile...?
That article had an odd blend of engineering detail mixed with marketing push.

...Another example is the ongoing IEEE P2030.1 "Guide for Electric-Sourced Transportation Infrastructure" standards project. Work is being carried out by four task forces—vehicle technology (including charging systems), electric grid (from generation to consumer), roadmap (including privacy and roaming), and communication/cyber security—and then integrated within the full working group for broader discussion and input...

Oh... Multiple 'task forces'... No wonder it is taking a while to get implemented.

...IEEE, meanwhile, has more than 100 standards and standards in development relevant to the smart grid...

Sounds like they are in the 'herding cats' process.