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Charging Station standards

Discussion in 'Supercharging & Charging Infrastructure' started by vfx, Jul 21, 2008.

  1. ra-san

    ra-san Member

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    That's really what I've been wondering - has Tesla stated they are open to the design being used as a standard (and have they done anything to push that), or do they consider it part of their advantage to keep it to themselves only.

    I throw up a little when I look at the pics of the other connectors. Huge, big, and ugly (yes, I know in effect said their size twice… that's how big they look). Oh, and ugly too.


    … I'd use them if I needed a charge and they were what existed though :(
     
  2. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    The first Chevy Spark will be a gas car, the EV version is not scheduled to appear until 2013. I am not going to hold my breath. That could mean a token appearance at the end of 2013, with "volume" in 2014.
    I should have said "with *just* an SAE DC connector" - I can see someone being talked into a dual unit with a "useless for at least 1.5 years SAE DC connector" but I think it will take quite the sales job.
    I just dont see anyone installing stations for cars that dont exist when they can install ones for cars that do.

    The timing of the level 2 J1772 is a different animal - they were competing with vacuum. SAE DC is going to be an entirely different story.

    I think it would be best for everyone ( the consumer ) if the Tesla plug won. But I would be super happy if SAE DC + Tesla won because- as you said - it should be an easy ( cheap ) thiong to make.
     
  3. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    #603 richkae, May 14, 2012
    Last edited: May 14, 2012
    So far the SAE DC effort is completely consistent with a strategy to FUD the EV world. They couldn't have made the connector any less appealing or more frightening unless they put fangs and a big DANGER ELECTRIC SCARY sign on it.

    I'm not saying that its intent is actually FUD, just that at this point it is indistinguishable between a real strategy and FUD to slow the adoption of the EVs already on the market.
     
  4. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    I am no longer interested in commitments and announcements. When I see installations I will be less skeptical. Lets see how many CHAdeMO units are installed in the US over the next 1.5 years and how many dual mode units.

    I will be happy to be proven wrong.
     
  5. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    Are they in it for the money or do they want exclusivity for Model S owners thereby selling more cars and making more money?
     
  6. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    I see any federal government funded (fully or partially) stations favoring SAE over CHAdeMO. CARB also has a history of pushing mandates that favor SAE, although I'm not sure of other states. And I don't think the lifetime of most stations is just 1 or 2 years, so the person buying a unit will likely look a bit further than that.

    They did have one competitor: the Tesla Roadster connector. It was the only production EV made in any significant number at that point. The legacy connectors at that point were AVCON and Magna Charge. The idea back then and I think it still applies now is to have a couple of stations ready before cars that use it come out. The chicken or the egg kind of thing.

    I agree with this, but I don't think the Tesla plug will win, given Tesla isn't making much of or really any effort to promote it to other automakers. I hoping for the second best option, which is SAE DC + Tesla winning. The scenario I picture for non-superchargers is dual CHAdeMO/SAE stations in the next couple of years (before it's 100% clear which one will "win") then slowly moving to SAE only as CHAdeMO cars near their end of live or are converted/adapted to SAE.

    I favor SAE DC for a couple of other reasons besides from easily compatibility with Tesla's connector:
    - The cost to make the connector is much cheaper than CHAdeMO (because of less pins and commonality with J1772 connectors, which are already made in mass volume).
    - There's no concerns about possible licensing required in the future.
    - It incorporates both Level 2 and Level 3 charging, so there is no need for a separate connector for both.
    - It supports V2G (CHAdeMO doesn't).
    - It supports more power (90kW vs 50kW of CHAdeMO).
     
  7. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    The car can have a dual purpose socket that can accept a J1772 AC plug or a SAE DC combo plug... but the plug itself isn't dual purpose.
    The plug on the combo charger can't plug into a vehicle with only an AC J1772 socket. For instance, no plugging an SAE Combo into an existing LEAF, or Volt... The DC sub-assembly physically gets in the way of plugging in the AC part to cars without the DC socket part.
     
  8. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    I should have worded it more carefully. It combines both into one socket (saving space on the car). As you pointed out, you still need a different level 2 connector mainly for legacy/backwards compatibility purposes (it also keeps level 2 connectors smaller/lighter/cheaper). Although the spec was actually designed to allow you to use a combo connector for AC charging also (meaning a station with a combo connector can be used for both DC and AC charging, although that may not be how it gets implemented by charger manufacturers or configured by station owners, since I'm pretty sure they don't want you hogging a DC station for hours charging on AC).
     
  9. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    The War Of The Plugs: The Japanese Empire Talks Back | The Truth About Cars

    plugs.jpg

     
  10. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    This is exactly what I expect charger manufacturers to do. They aren't stupid. It's quite clear almost all non-Japanese automakers, plus SAE and IEC will back the combo plug. Yes, there are no cars that can use it now, but in 1-2 years (which isn't that long of a time in terms of charger life-time, esp. considering CHAdeMO has been on the market for around the same amount of time) the first cars will come out that use the combo plug. I expect the Model S will be the first though (via adapter).

    Right now CHAdeMO has nothing to worry about in Japan, but there is going to be pressure in the US and Europe. They have to do their best to convince people not to leave existing CHAdeMO cars hanging (from the same article, it looks like it was true that GM sent someone to try to convince CA legislature to completely abandon CHAdeMO going forward).
     
  11. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    I predict that over the next 3 years ( from right now ) less than 5% of the real EVs sold in the US will have the SAE DC charge port. ( Not including EREVs, if you include those, it will be even less )
     
  12. AndyM

    AndyM Member

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  13. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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  14. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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  15. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    Instead of, apparently, some way to hold the cable in loops. So that will be either short or on the floor.
     
  16. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    I suppose it could retract into that top portion.
     
  17. Lloyd

    Lloyd Well-Known Member

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    #618 Lloyd, Jun 20, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2012
    Eaton Corporation Now has available a 70 amp J1772 EVSE available for ordering. Price $3025 including shipping. This model included networking. Price on non-networked units is less. Two to Three weeks for delivery. Sold only through local distributors. Part number SAR3DX000000

    Credit card processing is available: First set of Zeros are replaced with "CC"
    RFID card or key fob reader available: Second set of Zeros are replaced with "RB"

    EAton.jpg
     
  18. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    More homebrew units coming out now.
    http://www.ebay.com/sch/cincyy/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686

    Seller: cinccy
    cincyy ( 101 iconTealStar_25x25.gif )
    100% Positive feedback
    ew EVSE Charge Station:
    Charge Station is designed to supply 240v AC power to Electric vehicles according to the J1772 standard. Charge Station receives power from the breaker box to a 240 volt 30 amp receptacle where it plugs into. It can also be hard wired from the breaker box. For maximum safety GFI Circuit Breakers should be used for the Charge Station supply.

    This Charge Station is set up for 25-amp operation from a 30-amp breaker, but I can set one up for any level-2 current requirements. You will receive E-mail and phone support as needed.

    Description:
    • Level-2 Charge Station
    • Amps 25 (30 amp breaker)
    • J1772 compliant with 20ft Connector for electric vehicle charging
    • HxWxD 10x8x 4 inches
    • Indoor mounting (outdoor mounting with switch modification)
    • Weatherproof NEMA 4 Housing
    • Lighted power switch and Status indicators.
    • Power Source 208-240 Volt AC
    • Plugs into 3 or 4 prong 240 volt 30 amp Dryer Receptacle
    • UL-Listed Components
    • $(KGrHqF,!jEE9)HyCVbqBPsr1sR1d!~~60_58.JPG
     
  19. Dave EV

    Dave EV Active Member

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    Why would one buy a home-built unit when you can buy a UL tested one for the same price from a known manufacturer?

    The fact that this one is set up for 25A and suggests putting it on a 30A breaker (does not meet code, 24A is max continuous load allowed on a 30A breaker) does not instill confidence.
     

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