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Charging Station standards

Discussion in 'Supercharging & Charging Infrastructure' started by vfx, Jul 21, 2008.

  1. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    By comparison, the Tesla connector must be the size of the handle he is holding, without the thing in front of it.
     
  2. spatterso911

    spatterso911 P100DL - Raven

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    Well, it's pretty common knowledge that it's not the size of the connector that matters, but what it is connected to.
     
  3. AndyM

    AndyM Member

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    In Oregon, AiroVironment is deploying J1772 and CHAdeMO at key commercial points along I-5, presumably for ODOT. ODOT is not waiting for the SAE to make a finalized standard.
    http://www.recargo.com/sites/5185
    IMG_0088.jpg
     
  4. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    The connector matters for the ease of use, the convenient handling of the charging process. It is a critical part in how users will experience and perceive the technology in daily use.
     
  5. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    From what I am reading according to some commenters near the end of the thread that TEG linked, the SAE plug isn't as bad as some made it out to be. First of all the connector size is actually about the same as CHAdeMO (see TEG's picture) and it isn't as heavy as some people made it out to be.

    Second is there are already a couple of companies planning dual SAE/CHAdeMO stations (ABB, AV and Eaton were listed). It looks like that will be the solution for the US until it is clear that one will overtake the other (and vehicles with either CHAdeMO or SAE are phased out of use).
     
  6. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    I don't know what some people thought some other people "made it out to be", but they are comparing it to CHAdeMO (which also requires a big charge door), having that in the other hand, so to speak. Others are complaining about the force needed to unplug it. There doesn't seem to be anything behind that overhead in weight and size (kind of literally an overhead). It seems multiple times larger than the Tesla connector, not just a bit.
     
  7. SByer

    SByer '08 #383

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    The Tesla connector is sexy. Slim, curved, fits in smaller hands, light. The SAE and chademo plugs are hulking ugly behemoths. It's a no brainer as long as the signaling matches SAE.
     
  8. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    It seems like the design of both is either to make it as much like a gas nozzle as possible (no idea why anyone would want to do that) or to make it big so that folks realize there is some serious electricity going through it. It's what you get with "design by committee".
     
  9. W.Petefish

    W.Petefish Active Member

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    I think that I said something similar a while back. I guess this whole charging standard debate will eventually roll into a similar category as VHS vs Beta.
     
  10. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    The only really negative thing I got from that thread was the disconnection force was too high (a commenter mentioned it might have to do with the specific materials chosen for the prototype). Otherwise the plug isn't that different from CHAdeMO. Like other people in this thread, I like the Tesla plug better (does exactly the same job as J1772-DC but much smaller), but I find it unlikely it'll become the default standard in the US.
     
  11. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    Except in this case, neither standard is really a good choice if you compare it to the Tesla connector.
     
  12. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #593 TEG, May 12, 2012
    Last edited: May 12, 2012
    I have used that CHAdeMO type plug on my LEAF quite a few times now. It is lighter than one might expect. (Being made of aluminum and plastic unlike a gas pump handle which has a lot of steel.)

    But the lever and button on the particular one shown in the picture take some getting used to operating. You push the whole thing into the socket, then use the lever to make it latch into the socket. When you are done you use the button on top in two stages to release it while pulling out. Some people mistakenly try to pull the lever again when trying to remove it. Not exactly the most intuitive design.

    I hear there are some other CHAdeMO plugs that are slightly smaller and easier to operate.

    In contrast, the Tesla solution seems elegant and obvious.
     
  13. Talkredius

    Talkredius Member

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    I'm quite relaxed about that, or does anyone know a car that shall be sold before 2017 which makes use of this connector type:biggrin:
    Especially not the German automakers will do that, only exception might be Audi, because they might have to sell their prototypes to make room for new prototypes...:crying:
     
  14. GSP

    GSP Member

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    The Chevy Spark EV will use the J1772-DC fast charge connector. It will have "limited availability" in the US, in 2013 I think.

    I don't know of any other announcements, but I think one of the press releases said that all of the automakers listed have cars in development with this DC charging standard. Of course, that is no guarantee they will actually sell them. Since Chrysler is on the list, I would expect the Fiat 500 cinquenchento EV to use J1772-DC also.

    GSP
     
  15. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like the Hydrogen connection. Two steps back.

    Tesla plug all the way.
     
  16. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    The Chevy Spark EV will use it like GSP mentioned. BMW already had a ActiveE prototype with the Mennekes version of the DC connector for quite some time, so I expect the i3 to have the same connector. VW is already testing DC charging for the Golf EV, but from their comments they might choose CHAdeMO depending on how many get installed in Europe. Tesla is not part of this group, but the probablity it will have an adapter for it is extremely high (given the similarities between the connectors).
     
  17. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    The new SAE DC fast charge standard is meaningless.
    It will stay meaningless until there are cars for sale in showrooms that use it.

    The most likely car to use it won't come for about 2 years ( the Chevy Spark ), and it will probably have a tiny little battery that won't be useful for long distance travel that DC fast charging enables.
    The rest of the players are even more vague with their plans for EVs.

    By the time any car that uses the SAE DC standard appears on the market, there should be somewhere between 50,000 and 200,000 Nissan Leafs on american roads. Supporting those will be a large number of CHAdeMO locations. Thousands?
    There should also be between 25,000 and 40,000 Tesla sedans on the road, some of them will use the Tesla supercharger standard. How many supercharger locations will there be? Hundreds?
    How will they coexist with CHAdeMO? Will Nissan make a Tesla to CHAdeMO adapter? Will Tesla make a CHAdeMO to Tesla adapter?

    If you were planning an EV charging location in the next year you would want to have these choices:
    1) CHAdeMO unit
    2) CHAdeMO unit with the possibility of adding the SAE connector in the future.
    3) Tesla supercharger
    4) Unit with both Tesla and CHAdeMO connectors
    5) Unit with both Tesla and CHAdeMO connectors with the possibility of adding the SAE connector in the future.
    If someone offered you a unit with an SAE DC connector you'd look at them like they were stupid.
     
  18. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    I completely disagree. There are already three charger manufacturers (and large ones at that) attending EVS26 that have committed to making dual CHAdeMO and SAE chargers (not just ones that can be retrofitted in a later date). They even showed an example at the show. And the US/state government is much more likely to back an SAE standard (same with IEC on the European side). Keep in mind J1772 stations started appearing in mid-2010 before even one car was out that can use it (the Leaf and Volt launched at the end of 2010):
    What Charging Connector? J1772

    Given the Spark will be released as a 2013 model year car, I expect the first SAE DC station to start appearing near the end of this year. The Spark/Beat EV prototypes have a 20kWh pack with a123 cells (which can take a 2C charge easily) so it shouldn't be any worse than a Leaf using CHAdeMO. Personally in terms of large volume, I think the car to look for is the BMW i3, which will launch in Germany in 2013.

    Keep in mind the Tesla connector is electrically compatible with the SAE DC connector and the signaling is similar. Even the max power rating is exactly the same (90kW)! CHAdeMO is completely different in that it requires a CAN bus and max power rating is 50kW. That means it's much easier to built a dual Tesla/SAE DC charger or just built an SAE DC charger and have the Model S use an adapter. Heck I bet the supercharger can also be converted to support SAE relatively easily.
     
  19. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Not likely to happen, but I wish the 'industry' would just admit that the Tesla solution is so much more elegant and user friendly, and just adopt their plug/socket and give Tesla some meaningful licensing fees. Tesla has engineered a big improvement. It is like there is a BETA vs VHS battle still going on meanwhile the recordable Blu-Ray HD solution is already here too...

    It would probably only take a couple of 'defectors' (say from BMW, VW, Toyota, or Nissan) to adopt Tesla's standard before the others just fall into line.
    That is assuming that Tesla is amenable to having other companies use their plug/socket too...
     

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