Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

[wdolson]

There's been no change of administration at CARB. The changes in D.C. won't affect that. Also, the U.S. is no longer the world's biggest car market. Two reasons to think we won't see a rehash of the 90s.

Yes, CARB stands for the California Air Resources Board and the Democrats still run California. The states that have adopted CARB guidelines also tend to be dominated by Democrats.

Now there are the federal CAFE standards and the ICE makers are putting pressure on the new administration to weaken those. However, there is a new force outside of the regulatory structure that could make the CAFE standards irrelevant: the Model 3. If the Model 3 becomes the iPhone of cars, it will completely shift the focus of the entire car industry and whether the CAFE standards are scrapped or not it will be irrelevant.

The CAFE standards were a way to try and nudge the industry towards alternatives and better fuel economy in general, but the world is reaching the end of what can be done with ICE to make them more efficient. I ended up with a Model S because I wanted something with the same performance as my 1992 Buick with at least 20% better gas mileage and no ICE could do it. The best modern cars can do (for the same size class of car) is about 10% better gas mileage if performance is about the same. The way they get better mileage is make the cars gutless with 0-60 times over 10s.

The Model S's price is out of most people's price range and it was at the absolute ragged edge of what I could afford. For someone like me the Model 3 is a no brainer. Once people become educated about the advantages to electrics beyond the better energy efficiency, they car industry will be transformed forever and the gold rush will be on to build as many EVs as quickly as possible and Tesla will be 5 years ahead of everybody.

At that point, the CAFE standards will go out the window, they become irrelevant. Some car companies will fold and others will merge trying to stay afloat in a market that has changed and they have the wrong product. But the debate over CAFE standards will mostly be a quaint bit of history at that point.

It isn't guaranteed the Model 3 will be the game changer, but that's the way I'd bet today. The economy could tank in the next year or two, or Tesla could make some critical mistake that hurts them badly, but if things go even 80% according to plan, the Model 3 will be the crack that broke the dam.

 

[rxlawdude]

I ordered every option available. Basically packages, $58,429.22 then Less the rebate about $12,000 includes 6700 of taxes

Holy moly! $58K?? Might have well gotten a MS 60 for just $10K more.

 

[Az_Rael]

Holy moly! $58K?? Might have well gotten a MS 60 for just $10K more.

I am pretty sure thats Canadian dollars.

 

[bro1999]

I am pretty sure thats Canadian dollars.

And includes obscene Ontario tax, which is 13% if I'm not mistaken.

 

[rxlawdude]

I am pretty sure thats Canadian dollars.

Indeed. Didn't see the poster's location. So it's not that bad. Only $43,000 US. And tax included.

 

[McRat]

Holy moly! $58K?? Might have well gotten a MS 60 for just $10K more.

A black stripped Model S 60kWh is $87,300 Canadian. But you do give up 10% range.

 

[NuG]

I saw the Bolt yesterday at the LA Auto show. It's quite a bit smaller than what I would have expected. The quality is comparable to a Honda Fit. I doubt those on the fence between the two would take the Bolt unless you need an economical EV now.

 

[McRat]

I saw the Bolt yesterday at the LA Auto show. It's quite a bit smaller than what I would have expected. The quality is comparable to a Honda Fit. I doubt those on the fence between the two would take the Bolt unless you need an economical EV now.

Yes, more people buy ICE cars by a factor of over 100:1, so that's a safe bet.

But if you desire something much quicker, something that handles better, something that requires no warmup, something that has a full tank every morning, and a touch bigger and more stable at speed, then I'd actually go for something else.

A critical number is the passing speed test. 6.1 seconds for the Fit, 3.5 seconds for the Bolt. One is safe on mountain roads when passing, one is dangerous. Especially when you consider ICE engines lose power based on altitude, and EV's go quicker.

About the handling, using nothing but skidpan # tells you nothing but the quality of the tires and surface the testing is done on. Slalom speeds are far better indicators. The low CG on EV's makes them change directions quicker and have a better feel. A Volt is actually quite nimble through a slalom (and is also quicker than the Fit and get better fuel economy).

Honda Fit - Car and Driver

Chevrolet Bolt EV - Car and Driver

Chevrolet Volt - Car and Driver

 

[rxlawdude]

A black stripped Model S 60kWh is $87,300 Canadian. But you do give up 10% range.

Um, no. When the real world users of the Bolt start reporting, you'll be able to make at least a semi-intelligent comment about range. The only range data we have is from a Chevy-curated trip down a carefully planned route that (in a Tesla) uses fewer range miles than actually traveled.

Actually, Car and Driver said it got 190 highway miles. I find that to be <cough> bull <cough>.

Hey Rat, when you get yours, please tell us how that trip to Vegas goes for you.

 

[rxlawdude]

Um, no. When the real world users of the Bolt start reporting, you'll be able to make at least a semi-intelligent comment about range. The only range data we have is from a Chevy-curated trip down a carefully planned route that (in a Tesla) uses fewer range miles than actually traveled.

Yes, more people buy ICE cars by a factor of over 100:1, so that's a safe bet.

But if you desire something much quicker, something that handles better, something that requires no warmup, something that has a full tank every morning, and a touch bigger and more stable at speed, then I'd actually go for something else.

A critical number is the passing speed test. 6.1 seconds for the Fit, 3.5 seconds for the Bolt. One is safe on mountain roads when passing, one is dangerous. Especially when you consider ICE engines lose power based on altitude, and EV's go quicker.

About the handling, using nothing but skidpan # tells you nothing but the quality of the tires and surface the testing is done on. Slalom speeds are far better indicators. The low CG on EV's makes them change directions quicker and have a better feel. A Volt is actually quite nimble through a slalom (and is also quicker than the Fit and get better fuel economy).

Honda Fit - Car and Driver

Chevrolet Bolt EV - Car and Driver

Chevrolet Volt - Car and Driver

A critical number is the passing speed test. 6.1 seconds for the Fit, 3.5 seconds for the Bolt. One is safe on mountain roads when passing, one is dangerous. Especially when you consider ICE engines lose power based on altitude, and EV's go quicker.

A critical note about passing: the Bolt's TOP SPEED IS 93mph. Good luck passing with that.

 

[McRat]

Um, no. When the real world users of the Bolt start reporting, you'll be able to make at least a semi-intelligent comment about range. The only range data we have is from a Chevy-curated trip down a carefully planned route that (in a Tesla) uses fewer range miles than actually traveled.

Actually, Car and Driver said it got 190 highway miles. I find that to be <cough> bull <cough>.

Hey Rat, when you get yours, please tell us how that trip to Vegas goes for you.

Range data is from the EPA test cycle as submitted:

The Model S 60 combined EPA is 210mi, the Bolt is 238mi (13%)
Compare Side-by-Side

Right now, I'd be more worried to take a Model S 60 to Vegas. Barstow SC is off-line. To get to Mountain Pass, CA (Baker Grade Peak) from Rancho Cucamonga SC... might require prayer and warm clothing. In the mountains, weight hurts.

93mph uphill is plenty of speed to pass. It hits the speed limiter from a dead stop in 14 seconds. It will do the 50-70mph pass about 1 second quicker than a 2017 BMW 330i.

 

[RubberToe]

Range data is from the EPA test cycle as submitted:

The Model S 60 combined EPA is 210mi, the Bolt is 238mi (13%)
Compare Side-by-Side

Right now, I'd be more worried to take a Model S 60 to Vegas. Barstow SC is off-line. To get to Mountain Pass, CA (Baker Grade Peak) from Rancho Cucamonga SC... might require prayer and warm clothing. In the mountains, weight hurts.

93mph uphill is plenty of speed to pass. It hits the speed limiter from a dead stop in 14 seconds. It will do the 50-70mph pass about 1 second quicker than a 2017 BMW 330i.

I'll second the "Just tell us how your trip goes" comment from above...

RT

 

[Az_Rael]

Is there some reason you guys think Vegas isn't doable from the LA area in a Bolt? Distance from the Victorville CCS charger to the closest Vegas CCS charger is 178 miles. There is a J1772 in Primm as well if things get dicey after cresting the pass.

Sure, you can't do it at 85mph, and it might take a while for the 100% charge in Victorville, since its probably only 50kW but I think it would be possible.

 

[RubberToe]

Is there some reason you guys think Vegas isn't doable from the LA area in a Bolt? Distance from the Victorville CCS charger to the closest Vegas CCS charger is 178 miles. There is a J1772 in Primm as well if things get dicey after cresting the pass.

Sure, you can't do it at 85mph, and it might take a while for the 100% charge in Victorville, since its probably only 50kW but I think it would be possible.

New vehicle, and the trip has never been done before. L.A. to Vegas speeds are often quite fast, going 75 in the right lane you are creating a hazard for those going 90+. Stopping to charge will take longer than a Model S/X, TBD how much longer. The DC fast charger you stop at may have a line of newly minted Bolt enthusiasts, just like McRat, all drooling to show us their Las Vegas trip log. They will have a lot of time to kill while waiting in line for the 1 or 2 DC fast chargers they will all be converging on.

So yes, I'm sure it can be done. It will probably be more exciting than taking a Tesla there. So I'm looking forward to the trip report(s). But then again, maybe the journey IS the destination...

RT

 

[Jeff N]

So yes, I'm sure it can be done. It will probably be more exciting than taking a Tesla there. So I'm looking forward to the trip report(s). But then again, maybe the journey IS the destination...

It will surely be easier when ChargePoint installs the 10 DC chargers among 4 locations between Barstow and Primm, NV on I-15 during the next couple of years.

 

[UnbeknownstToAll]

I saw the Bolt yesterday at the LA Auto show. It's quite a bit smaller than what I would have expected. The quality is comparable to a Honda Fit. I doubt those on the fence between the two would take the Bolt unless you need an economical EV now.

Agreed, saw it at LA Auto Show. I expected to see at least a small group looking at it, but the media there could care less about it. Maybe it's a West Coast thing or all of them saw what I did.....nothing special.

 

[Az_Rael]

going 75 in the right lane you are creating a hazard for those going 90+

I have heard this numerous times, and I find it to be a ridiculous argument. I regularly drive on the California freeways (including many Vegas I15 runs ) and I find that I can go 72 and no one runs me over. I do stay in the right hand lane, and not once has anyone crashed into the back of me or run me off the road for only going 2 over the speed limit in the slow lane (or been run off the road themselves by me being a "hazard"). I would think the semi's going 55 would be a larger hazard to the 90mph+ crowd than me.

I will be cruising to Vegas in my Model S at 72 just like I always do, thank you very much. (I'll just be able to pass the semi's faster in the P vs my old Volt, LOL)

 

[mytes]

I ordered every option available. Basically packages, $58,429.22 then Less the rebate about $12,000

that includes 6,700 of taxes

I am pretty sure thats Canadian dollars.

yes Can$
We have an S, but it is too big (for my wife)and so is the model 3!

 

[Zoomit]

It will surely be easier when ChargePoint installs the 10 DC chargers among 4 locations between Barstow and Primm, NV on I-15 during the next couple of years.

I hesitate to do this, but will share some early results I have from my EV performance modeling. So before everybody twists their underpants, please recognize I have a long list of (hopefully reasonable) assumptions baked into these squiggly lines that I need to write-up and will share when I finish refining the models. In a nutshell, this shows:

Downtown LA to Las Vegas via I-5N, 267 miles
Unique, partially-calibrated power consumption and battery recharging models for S 60 and Bolt EV
Model S 60 (locked 75) stops at Barstow and Primm Superchargers
Bolt EV stops at future, planned Barstow and Baker 50kW DCFC stations
Mostly 75 mph
Minimum 15% SoC
Flat ground (elevation effects in work)
Optimal charging, no waiting to charge, no weather...lots more

Results
3h 67m driving time for both
38 min charging time for S 60
53 min charging time for Bolt EV
Both cars have similar efficiency, ~2% difference (well within the modeling uncertainty)
Largest differentiator is net recharge rate
Planned DCFC station build-out is critical for Bolt EV (uses today's SCs vs future DCFCs)

Frankly, I'm not sure if these results are what people expect to see or not, but hopefully they add context to the discussion.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

Right now, I'd be more worried to take a Model S 60 to Vegas. Barstow SC is off-line. To get to Mountain Pass, CA (Baker Grade Peak) from Rancho Cucamonga SC... might require prayer and warm clothing. In the mountains, weight hurts.

Because of this: Barstow, CA Tesla Supercharger Vandalized Before Thanksgiving Weekend

Doesn't sound like a valid situation to be concerned about. One that would strand the bolt too if all the CCS stations were sabotaged in a similiar manner.