Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Circuit breaker tripped last night

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
There have been thunderstorms near here over the last few days. I understand that lightning is electricity, but why would it cause a trip to go inside my house?

I realise that I must sound completely ignorant, but the only thing I’ve ever learned about electricity is DC car electrics and wiring a 13A plug many years ago.
 
Spoke to the installation company. One of their electricians said that it was probably a power surge which happens occasionally, and I needn’t be concerned unless it starts to happen frequently.
 
The comment about testing your RCD is a good one. Every 6 months. I have seen them stick so get on and do it...and a 32A breaker will deliver 32 Amps for ever so no need to go 40A! I have noticed my car sneak up to 34A but even that would take hours to trip.
 
The comment about testing your RCD is a good one. Every 6 months. I have seen them stick so get on and do it...and a 32A breaker will deliver 32 Amps for ever so no need to go 40A! I have noticed my car sneak up to 34A but even that would take hours to trip.

Not so. We installed a series of power posts for portacabins at work. We fitted them with Network ports, water, 110v plus 220v Commando’s in 16 and 32 A flavours. If I plug my car into them I have to ensure it pulls 30A max, or else after about 15minutes the 32A MCB’s trip.
 
Get your electrician back. 32A will take 36A for 1hour before tripping (number 1 on chart.) Is it the rcd which trips? The numbers allong the bottom are times x the mcb rating so a 32A with 64A passing through it (i.e x2) will trip at 5 seconds
mcbs0ky.jpg
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ringi
Yup, they're the curves, also note the reference temperature of 30 degrees (easy to have exceeded that based on ambient alone, over the last few days, without considering cable heating), and then consider that the devices aren't perfect. I would still say that charging at 32 A on a 32 A MCB gives you the potential for nuisance trips.
 
  • Love
Reactions: MikeHolliday
Not so. We installed a series of power posts for portacabins at work. We fitted them with Network ports, water, 110v plus 220v Commando’s in 16 and 32 A flavours. If I plug my car into them I have to ensure it pulls 30A max, or else after about 15minutes the 32A MCB’s trip.
Absolutely correct, as you are drawing current the wire warms up, as it warms up the resistance of the wire increases and will cause it to draw enough to trip.
 
When the Car is charging the house wiring warms up. It tends to do it more with Car charging than with many other items due to the fact that Car charging is a continuous load. Over a long charge cycle, this is more likely to happen because the wiring does not get a cool down period. This can be especially true if you are pulling close to the maximum load for the given wire size.
 
When the Car is charging the house wiring warms up. It tends to do it more with Car charging than with many other items due to the fact that Car charging is a continuous load. Over a long charge cycle, this is more likely to happen because the wiring does not get a cool down period. This can be especially true if you are pulling close to the maximum load for the given wire size.

Well, the cabling between your charge point and where it's connected to the mains supply will warm to some extent ... I wouldn't describe that as the "house wiring" warming up! Any legal installation (UK) will have a more than adequate capacity so any warming would be insignificant. If that's the case for you then there's something strange going on.
 
Thank you all for your helpful replies. Regrettably, I don’t understand anything about electricity and comprehend little of what you have written. The installer put in a separate fuse box for the charger next to the original one for the rest of the house. Here is a picture.

View attachment 574808

The little switch labelled ‘CAR CHARGER’ is the one that tripped. Will this help you explain what happened to me?
For info looking at this picture is a poor install. 40A rcd has a total connected load of 46A good start. The rcd is not a current breaker the 40A is its capacity it should be higher. If the breaker was 32A then fair enough. I would like to see what is on the other end of that unit!!
 
Not so. We installed a series of power posts for portacabins at work. We fitted them with Network ports, water, 110v plus 220v Commando’s in 16 and 32 A flavours. If I plug my car into them I have to ensure it pulls 30A max, or else after about 15minutes the 32A MCB’s trip.
The reason is this if you set the car at 32 Amps, then it trips because when you add in the resistance in the cable between the breaker and the car you exceed the load of the breaker (Not accounting for the fact that power companies do not always keep the power at exactly 220 volts) and it trips.

The longer the Cable between the Breaker and the Charger the larger the voltage will be. Let's use 220 volt example and it is a 32 Amp Charger, then 220 volts times 32 Amps equals 7,040 Watts. Now if you have a 10% voltage drop and the Charger only sees 198 Volts. 7,040 Watts divided by 198 Volts, you are now drawing 35.33 Amps through the Breaker. These are just example of how Ohms Law works to help people understand that just because you have a 32 Amp Charger does not mean that just 32 Amps are being drawn though the breaker.
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: Bernard_S
Nice theory but that's not how the charger works.

You set the charge required in AMPS not WATTS so if there was a 10% voltage drop on the cable the car will still set 32A as per normal and, assuming the charger doesn't fail because of undervoltage to the car, it will now draw 198v x 32A = 6556 Watts.

The current will not exceed 32A because the car sets that as its maximum.

The real problem in that example scenario is the 10% voltage loss in the cables etc - 22v x 32A = 700 watts - dem cables gonna cook!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: *Adam
For info looking at this picture is a poor install. 40A rcd has a total connected load of 46A good start. The rcd is not a current breaker the 40A is its capacity it should be higher. If the breaker was 32A then fair enough. I would like to see what is on the other end of that unit!!

I would have thought that the installer would have taken diversity into account?

Most consumer units will have a potential cumulative power total exceeding the rating of the consumer unit. eg 3 x 32A and a 6A will exceed a typical 100A consumer unit and thats before you get into the realms of multiway boxes. Even if split load, its still likely to cumulatively exceed the RCD rating and all loads will still go through a single unprotected 100A switch for example. Granted that there won't be any diversity on EV charging, but the 6A is unlikely to have significant load so I am sure that the diversity calculation would have bought it within the 40A RCD rating. imho.
 
Thanks again for all your replies. I don’t understand them, but I find the difference of opinion between you a little disturbing.

It hasn’t happened again, so I’m going to put it down as a one off. The installer was organised by the electric company, so I do trust them.
 
... always consult a qualified electrician with anything like this, even better if you know/trust one already - get them on the case.

Definitely this ahead of trying to make sense of forum responses. A few days ago I started typing a reply thinking I could help on the topic of RCD/MCB/RCBO markings vs actual tripping current but realised I didn’t actually know and am not qualified to guess / provide my own interpretation !

I did check with my electrical installer about the rated vs trip current on the RCBO he installed last week for my 16A commando/interlocked circuit on the house. He said the type of RCBO meant it should handle immediate constant 16A whilst being rated at 16A but he’s used cable that can handle 20A (2.5mm2). It’s a relatively short run, around 6-7m. My knowledge runs out at that point.
 
There seems to be some less than clear information in this thread. Not sure I can help to clarify things or not, but here goes.

Supply cable resistance is extremely unlikely to be of any concern for a UK installation. The regs here specify that the installer has to ensure that the voltage drop at the charge point end of the cable must not exceed 5% of the nominal supply voltage when under maximum load (for completeness, the voltage drop allowable on a lighting circuit is 3%, mainly to avoid visible fluctuations in light level when additional lights are switched on or off).

In practice, the voltage drop is very unlikely to be anywhere near 5% for a charge point installation, as the cable is normally over-sized. The manufacturers instructions (MIs) take precedence over the wiring regulations for some things, and many specify that the minimum supply cable for a 32 A charge point shall be 6mm², which is normally a heavier gauge cable than is strictly necessary for most domestic charge point installations. As an example, a 20m run of 6mm² cable will give a voltage drop of about 1.2% well under the requirement in the regs. There's a handy voltage drop calculator on the TCL website: Voltage Drop Calculator | TLC Electrical (I've no connection to them, other than as a customer).

Whilst it's true that cable (and whole circuit) resistance will increase as the temperature increases, this will have no effect at all on the current drawn in the case of a charge point, as the charger (in the car) will try to draw the current set by the Control Pilot duty cycle, irrespective of small changes in the apparent supply voltage. Anyway the temperature increase in the cable from the load current is likely to be pretty small, because most UK installations will most probably have oversize cabling (largely to reduce the temperature rise from what may be a sustained high current load) in accordance with the charge point MIs.

The factors that cause over-current devices to trip at elevated temperatures are primarily self-heating within the over-current device itself in combination with the local ambient temperature inside the device enclosure. Over-current devices have two internal overload protection mechanisms. One is a fast-acting magnetic trip, that responds to rapid and severe over-current events, the second is a thermal over-current trip, that responds more slowly to a sustained overload condition. As it's name implies, a thermal overload trip works by an internal element heating up, as a result of the current passing through it, causing a bimetallic strip to deform and initiate the rapid trip mechanism, that breaks the circuit.

One side effect of this long duration overload sensing method, is that it is temperature sensitive. The warmer the area around the device, the faster it will tend to trip under a modest overload. One significant issue, and a very good reason for installing a charge point over-current protection device in it's own enclosure, is that all devices like this get warm under load, so if you have several, in close proximity to each other, within the same enclosure, then at times when several circuits are fairly heavily loaded the devices will get a bit warm, making them a bit more sensitive (as shown in those curves posted above).

When it comes to the cause of a trip in a charge point circuit, if the protection device is an RCBO, a combined over-current and residual current protection device (which it may well be) then it can be difficult to quickly determine whether it has tripped because of an over-current event, or because of a residual current event.

In this case diagnosis is made easier because the residual current device is separate from the over-current device, and it is the over current device that has tripped. The explanation given that the trip might have been caused by a surge is certainly plausible. Although supply lines are protected to some extent from lightning strikes, there can be very short duration voltage surges, either induced by nearby lightning strikes, or from unusual local network events, such as a heavy load being suddenly disconnected. If the voltage surges, the the instantaneous current through the over-current device might exceed the fast-acting magnetic trip device limit.

Although it seems that this installation is sensibly fitted in its own dedicated enclosure, so isn't going to get warmed up by adjacent over-current devices, it is possible that it may have been getting warm for other reasons. Apart from external heating from hot weather, other heat sources etc, the most common reason for heat build up in enclosures like this is if the connections aren't tight. Despite warning labels and a lot of emphasis during training about the critical importance of ensuring terminations are correctly torqued up, finding loose connections that have clearly been running hot is all too common. It's so common that the regulations were amended a few years ago to ban the use of plastic enclosures in dwellings, so now they all have to be fireproof (usually metal). This hasn't stopped the problem of loose terminations, but does reduce the risk that loose termination might start a fire.

It's just a few minutes work for a competent person to isolate the power and check the torque on the terminations, but in the meantime, it wouldn't hurt to point an infrared thermometer directly at the MCB (miniature circuit breaker) that has tripped in the past, after the car has been charging at maximum current for an hour or two. If its temperature is more than about 30 degrees above ambient, I'd be inclined to suspect that something is awry, and report this to the installer. Warming up by a few degrees above ambient is normal, though, and nothing to worry about, it's when the case of the MCB itself gets hot that I'd be concerned.
 
I would have thought that the installer would have taken diversity into account?

Most consumer units will have a potential cumulative power total exceeding the rating of the consumer unit. eg 3 x 32A and a 6A will exceed a typical 100A consumer unit and thats before you get into the realms of multiway boxes. Even if split load, its still likely to cumulatively exceed the RCD rating and all loads will still go through a single unprotected 100A switch for example. Granted that there won't be any diversity on EV charging, but the 6A is unlikely to have significant load so I am sure that the diversity calculation would have bought it within the 40A RCD rating. imho.
Borderline for that installation with only
2 breakers? Someone was trying to save a few quid. BG for a start!