What? It's as simple as charging to 100% and looking at the indicated rated range. No testing required.
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Class Action Suit for Battery Degradation
- Thread starter bnsfengineer
- Start date
What? It's as simple as charging to 100% and looking at the indicated rated range. No testing required.
ACA Man
Member
That ‘idiot’ happened to be a former aerospace engineer with Boeing & Lockheed specialized in power distribution.
It is about time! I have had 3 Tesla's over 7 years. The first two were S85 and S85D. Total of 65000 miles over 6 years. Each and both of them lost 1% of battery capacity per year or about 10k - 12k miles. My 2019 Model X has lost over 6 % capacity in the first year/12,000 miles. Tesla tells me this is normal and I am lucky it isn't 10% like a lot of them. This is BS! They are using a "new" battery chemistry that maximizes the range they can claim with EPA testing when new. Within a year or 18 months your real battery capacity is back to the old value and after that, the new one continues to fall further and further behind. This practice is unethical at best and possibly down right dishonest. Tesla knows this is going on and they hide or dispute it.
Range loss is a fact of batteries at least at this time. EPA should know this and force the car companies to publish estimates of these known losses on the window sticker along with the bogus brand new number. They force gas vehicles to give an estimate of annual fuel costs which are based on their MPG ratings. Of course with an ICE vehicle, the MPG the car gets usually goes up a little after breakin and then remains very constant for many years if the vehicle is properly maintained. Electric cars have a different set of guidelines which should be addressed in a similar manner to the ICE cars.
Quite frankly, I have looked at the watts/mile of my cars based on the EPA ratings and my X would need a 103 kWH battery to make these numbers. The display on the vehicle indicates that about 315 watts/mile is equivalent to "rated". Using that number to calculate battery size I get 103. The real number necessary to give a 100kWH battery size is something like 339 watts/mile. I have found imperically that If I can keep my consumption around 315 W/m I do indeed get "Rated" range. 1 mile lost on the range = 1 mile traveled on the odometer.
I also have a toy Fiat 500e which still can equal or exceed its EPA range and after 3 years and 22000 miles appears to have essentially original capacity. It is certainly no worse than 98%. I know several Chevy Bolt owners whose cars also routinely exceed EPQ numbers in real world driving. They are too recent to get meaningful range loss predictions other then neither of them haver lost anything like 6%- 10% after their first year.
Somewhere between 2015, the year of my S85D, and now Tesla has begun to cheat big big time on their battery chemistry in order to get more favorable EPA numbers at the expense of real battery life and longevity. I won't even go into the behind the scenes software updates that have reduced the acceleration rate of my, at the time, less than 1 year old Model X. Plainly put, the Tesla Model X 100D I currently drive is not even close to the the one I purchased in March of 2019 for more than $100 grand! Shame on you Tesla!
Range loss is a fact of batteries at least at this time. EPA should know this and force the car companies to publish estimates of these known losses on the window sticker along with the bogus brand new number. They force gas vehicles to give an estimate of annual fuel costs which are based on their MPG ratings. Of course with an ICE vehicle, the MPG the car gets usually goes up a little after breakin and then remains very constant for many years if the vehicle is properly maintained. Electric cars have a different set of guidelines which should be addressed in a similar manner to the ICE cars.
Quite frankly, I have looked at the watts/mile of my cars based on the EPA ratings and my X would need a 103 kWH battery to make these numbers. The display on the vehicle indicates that about 315 watts/mile is equivalent to "rated". Using that number to calculate battery size I get 103. The real number necessary to give a 100kWH battery size is something like 339 watts/mile. I have found imperically that If I can keep my consumption around 315 W/m I do indeed get "Rated" range. 1 mile lost on the range = 1 mile traveled on the odometer.
I also have a toy Fiat 500e which still can equal or exceed its EPA range and after 3 years and 22000 miles appears to have essentially original capacity. It is certainly no worse than 98%. I know several Chevy Bolt owners whose cars also routinely exceed EPQ numbers in real world driving. They are too recent to get meaningful range loss predictions other then neither of them haver lost anything like 6%- 10% after their first year.
Somewhere between 2015, the year of my S85D, and now Tesla has begun to cheat big big time on their battery chemistry in order to get more favorable EPA numbers at the expense of real battery life and longevity. I won't even go into the behind the scenes software updates that have reduced the acceleration rate of my, at the time, less than 1 year old Model X. Plainly put, the Tesla Model X 100D I currently drive is not even close to the the one I purchased in March of 2019 for more than $100 grand! Shame on you Tesla!
I don't know. How would I go about measuring that. I have been using a program called Stats that logs into my car and does all of the math for me. It always agrees with the final charge numbers from the car. As I said, I realize that loss is a part of batteries. I am just pissed at the 6% to 10% number which is now prevalent with Tesla when I have years of experience at around 1%. There are also many fleet studies than show 20% - 25% loss at the 250k - 350k mile range. What the hell happend. If I had known, I would have kept my 85D and just bought the warranty extension. I drive to and from my lake home once a month and it is a 700 mile round trip. After 45000 miles the 2015 S85D had no problem making it on one stop each way, as did the X when new. Now I need a second stop on the X and it is only a year old.
If you could let me know the proceedure for measuring the cell voltage, I will give it a try. I need to be careful around 450 v and 2 billion amps (or whatever)! I can take on one of those little suckers but once his buddies join in.......
You'd need to use ScanMyTesla or TM-SPY app with a 327 elm bluetooth dongle and an OBDII to Tesla DLC conversion cable. I made my own along with most others here.
Knowing what your cell voltage at x SOC will tell you if any of your degradation is artificial capping by Tesla or not.
For instance, if you can only reach 4.1 volts at 100%, it means you're being capped to 90% of the existing capacity when your SOC says 100% i.e. about 10% of the battery is locked out if you get that reading.
Knowing what your cell voltage at x SOC will tell you if any of your degradation is artificial capping by Tesla or not.
For instance, if you can only reach 4.1 volts at 100%, it means you're being capped to 90% of the existing capacity when your SOC says 100% i.e. about 10% of the battery is locked out if you get that reading.
The ONLY way you can determine actual battery degradation any more is to run the EPA test yourself and drain the battery completely doing it. It is obvious Tesla has been changing the variables that go into the “miles” remaining display based on the many battery threads that span all Tesla’s products. I wouldn’t get worked up over what your battery meter is stating. There are also ample threads in the Model 3 forum with posts explaining how charging habits have significantly changed the miles remaining readings. What does this all mean? You can’t use the battery meter to figure out actual battery degradation anymore.
You can see degradation with the CANbus data as well. You are reading the BMS data direct that way. You can also see any voltage capping, which is different and the subject of the class action for the S and X.
ACA Man
Member
So you lost about 6% the first year?
To my knowledge, batteries tend to lose capacity the most the first year normally.
Look at it like a break-in period where everything is working somewhat not in unison.
I’d be more worried if the same happened from the 2nd year on.
just my $0.02.
True, but 6% is still excessive for first year. I lost 3% in the first 25K miles and 2.5% in the next 90K miles.
But Tesla has changed the cell formulation, a number of times, since your battery was made. So I'm not sure your experience applies to current Tesla battery packs. (For example we have seen that the first gen 90kWh packs suffered from large , and quick, degradation.)
ACA Man
Member
I can’t disagree with you.
My guess is yours is above average from the graph furnished to me by Jeff Dahn and also posted elsewhere.
The funny thing about the whole thing is Tesla’s response has been a script of...It’s normal.
I asked them during our arbitration that if it’s normal then how do you explain the excessive loss in range and their answer is...it’s complicated.
I hate to say this but it seems Tesla has been operating with nothing but lies.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
For a some of the 85s. And for those some, most of the loss in range is from capping rather than actual degradation.
From the fleet graphs posted mine is right in the middle of normal for my mileage. No great but also not bad.
ACA Man
Member
Count yourself lucky.
In our case, we began as a CPO at 166/208 miles which is roughly a 20% degradation.
It’s now, more or less, 154/208 miles which represents a 26% degradation.
We had been patiently trying to work with Tesla since Day One and they kept saying it’s normal thus the lawsuit.
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