Cold. Cold. Cold. Strange / Interesting screen reading.

[johnjrs3]

I’ve lived through the more than 20 below weather in Milwaukee all week with my new Tesla 3 dual motor car parked outside. I do have a Tesla charger and left it plugged in all night. The charging itself warms the battery. Early in am I increase the limit to restart charging and turn on climate to warm up the car. The charger is enough to support this and maybe add one more mile or so.
The 3 has exceeded my expectations in this ridiculous weather.

 

[MikeM3D]

Hey... in extreme cold, is it a good idea to just leave your M3 plugged in if your not using it?
Really would like to know what M3 owners are actually doing when it comes to extreme cold and leaving car plugged in for a few to several days at a time.

I had a Ceramic Pro coating job done on my M3D about 8 days ago, in Long Island, NY and it has stayed in the garage, as your not supposed to get it wet until curing completes (up to 3 weeks). While the garage is heated and stays above freezing, its still pretty cold -- I've been watching phantom range drop from the app daily.

I felt like I had to do something with it so cold... the other day I decided to plug it in, and leave it for a few days. I believe when it draws low enough it tops its charge off. While I think I like the idea of the charge being full (80% max per Tesla advice at delivery) when I go to use it, especially since the range is really quite bad in extreme cold, I'd love to know if its better for the battery to stay topped off in cold ---or should I let it phantom drain down and charge it back up when it gets low enough or after I take it out?

I realize am a bit "paranoid" about doing the "best thing that I can" in maintaining/or caring for the battery --I mean, why wouldn't you be? : ) Thanks much in advance guys!

--Frozen in New York.

 

[Tertulian]

Hello all you technically-minded folks!

I've been following this thread and only half understanding it (damn that liberal arts degree!) so I apologize if the answer to the question I'm about to ask has already been stated.

Anyhow, I've been experiencing a lot of phantom drain and the Tesla service people told me something that I've read is not true - they told me that the battery likes to be at a certain temperature and if it falls below a certain temperature it will spend energy to heat itself, even if it's sitting in your driveway. Can anyone verify if this is true? I know that the battery will expend energy to heat itself if it's being driven, but what about if it's just sitting there, such as over the course of several days or a week? Will it use its BMS to ensure that it never falls below a certain temperature?

Although it's been pretty cold here in Toronto (well, by Toronto standards... -18C, -20C, etc.), my phantom drain has been in the order of 20-40km on a regular bases...so about 4-8% a day

Thanks!

 

[navguy12]

Hello all you technically-minded folks!

I've been following this thread and only half understanding it (damn that liberal arts degree!) so I apologize if the answer to the question I'm about to ask has already been stated.

Anyhow, I've been experiencing a lot of phantom drain and the Tesla service people told me something that I've read is not true - they told me that the battery likes to be at a certain temperature and if it falls below a certain temperature it will spend energy to heat itself, even if it's sitting in your driveway. Can anyone verify if this is true? I know that the battery will expend energy to heat itself if it's being driven, but what about if it's just sitting there, such as over the course of several days or a week? Will it use its BMS to ensure that it never falls below a certain temperature?

Although it's been pretty cold here in Toronto (well, by Toronto standards... -18C, -20C, etc.), my phantom drain has been in the order of 20-40km on a regular bases...so about 4-8% a day

Thanks!

I'm not a subject matter expert, so if someone else can step in to corroborate or refute:

The traction battery, lithium ion, has issues with accepting or releasing energy the colder it gets.

An old fashioned lead acid battery is serving a 12 volt storage battery function on this car because it can be safely charged at far colder temperatures than the traction battery.

The owners manual specifies something like -30c (?, can't quite remember exact number) as the minimum temperature to expose the battery to for a 24 hour period to preserve battery longevity.

I've seen regen limited dots last fall when the ambient temperature was around 12c, so I can confidently say the battery pac wants to be at some temperature above 12c in order to accept a full power input (brake regen or supercharger).

I was told a year ago that the prime operating temperature for this pac is 28c (sorry, no links).

In the owners manual, they talk about phantom drain being 1% a day.

They should add the caveat that 1% per day is if no battery conditioning is required.

On various threads, folks have shown the colder it gets, if you park the car (and don't keep waking it up to check it) for a number of days, the phantom drain is greater than 1%.

FWIW, I would plan on 1% phantom drain only if you store the car at (or above) 15c.

Between 0c and 15c, 1.5% a day.

Between -10c and 0c, 2% a day

Below -10c, plan for 3% a day.

So, to answer your question after reading thru this long ramble: yes, this battery pac will expend energy to keep itself above a certain temperature.

What the exact parameters are, I don't know, only a Tesla engineer could tell you.

 

[halfricanguy]

Hey... in extreme cold, is it a good idea to just leave your M3 plugged in if your not using it?

A plugged in car is a happy car. You'll find a range of opinions, but the most prominent, and what is stated in the manual, is to keep the car plugged in when possible; weather shouldn't have anything to do with it.

 

[halfricanguy]

From the manual (emphasis theirs)

Note: In cold weather, some of the stored energy in the Battery may not be available until the Battery warms up. When this happens, a portion of the Battery meter is blue and the driving distance value has a snowflake image next to it. If Model 3 is plugged in, you can heat your Battery using wall power by turning on climate control using the mobile app. When the Battery warms up, the blue portion on the meter and the snowflake image are no longer displayed.

Model 3 has one of the most sophisticated battery systems in the world. The most important way to preserve the Battery is to LEAVE YOUR VEHICLE PLUGGED IN when you are not using it. This is particularly important if you are not planning to drive Model 3 for several weeks. When plugged in, Model 3 wakes up when needed to automatically maintain a charge level that maximizes the lifetime of the Battery.

Note: When left idle and unplugged, your vehicle periodically uses energy from the Battery for system tests and recharging the 12V battery when necessary. There is no advantage to waiting until the Battery’s level is low before charging. In fact, the Battery performs best when charged regularly

It's okay to leave your car unplugged for a while. I've left mine unplugged for about a week while on vacation. But, if you are able to, it is good to keep it plugged in.

 

[NickFie]

Since its going to be -24.
Do you drive to work and let it sit all day unplugged? I'm curious about heat when there is no possibility of pre warming.
Such as getting a call at work to pick up a sick child asap. Walk out to the car and go.

Use the App to turn on cabin heat as soon as you complete the call. Car starts heating while you race through day-end activities, advise of your departure, don your coat, walk to the car...

You're certainly better than ICE with remote start. The engine may start instantly, still 10 minutes or so before there's heat.

I work in a sizable office campus, deliberately park in a remote lot. In cold weather when our daughter has the S and I've got the Hyundai, I'll start the car while in my office. Even after the long walk to the lot, no warm air until I've almost reached the highway.

 

[Tertulian]

I'm not a subject matter expert, so if someone else can step in to corroborate or refute:

The traction battery, lithium ion, has issues with accepting or releasing energy the colder it gets.

An old fashioned lead acid battery is serving a 12 volt storage battery function on this car because it can be safely charged at far colder temperatures than the traction battery.

The owners manual specifies something like -30c (?, can't quite remember exact number) as the minimum temperature to expose the battery to for a 24 hour period to preserve battery longevity.

I've seen regen limited dots last fall when the ambient temperature was around 12c, so I can confidently say the battery pac wants to be at some temperature above 12c in order to accept a full power input (brake regen or supercharger).

I was told a year ago that the prime operating temperature for this pac is 28c (sorry, no links).

In the owners manual, they talk about phantom drain being 1% a day.

They should add the caveat that 1% per day is if no battery conditioning is required.

On various threads, folks have shown the colder it gets, if you park the car (and don't keep waking it up to check it) for a number of days, the phantom drain is greater than 1%.

FWIW, I would plan on 1% phantom drain only if you store the car at (or above) 15c.

Between 0c and 15c, 1.5% a day.

Between -10c and 0c, 2% a day

Below -10c, plan for 3% a day.

So, to answer your question after reading thru this long ramble: yes, this battery pac will expend energy to keep itself above a certain temperature.

What the exact parameters are, I don't know, only a Tesla engineer could tell you.

Thanks for the input. I'm still not sure that the battery is expending energy to heat itself when it's cold out (though not less than -30). Consider the very fact that those dotted lines do appear, indicating that the battery is cold - and the extent of the dotted lines varies with the temperature; the colder it is, the more dots there are. Similarly, when it's really cold you get a notice that full power from the battery will not be available until it heats up.

All this seems to indicate to me that the battery is NOT warming itself intermittently when in idle (at least, so long as it's above -30). If it were heating itself, then the cold-related symptoms (other than decreased range) would have a lower limit as beyond that point the battery would heat. It makes me think that my phantom drain is coming from somewhere else.

Unfortunately, I can't find anything that online that talks about cold weather battery behaviour in Teslas, so it's hard to verify anything.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Thanks for the input. I'm still not sure that the battery is expending energy to heat itself when it's cold out (though not less than -30). Consider the very fact that those dotted lines do appear, indicating that the battery is cold - and the extent of the dotted lines varies with the temperature; the colder it is, the more dots there are. Similarly, when it's really cold you get a notice that full power from the battery will not be available until it heats up.

All this seems to indicate to me that the battery is NOT warming itself intermittently when in idle (at least, so long as it's above -30). If it were heating itself, then the cold-related symptoms (other than decreased range) would have a lower limit as beyond that point the battery would heat. It makes me think that my phantom drain is coming from somewhere else.

Unfortunately, I can't find anything that online that talks about cold weather battery behaviour in Teslas, so it's hard to verify anything.

Last week I posted the mileage of my battery on an hourly basis when it was -23F here in Chicago.

I was losing about 7 miles per hour on average on both days with my car out in the parking lot exposed to all of the elements. Why was I losing 7 -10 miles per hour? What was it doing if it wasn't heating itself up? I didn't have any interior heat on or anything.

Today Its 29 degrees and for the past 3 hours....I have only lost 1 mile.


What do you think was the cause for my mileage loss when it was -23F?

 

[voip-ninja]

Thanks for the input. I'm still not sure that the battery is expending energy to heat itself when it's cold out (though not less than -30). Consider the very fact that those dotted lines do appear, indicating that the battery is cold - and the extent of the dotted lines varies with the temperature; the colder it is, the more dots there are. Similarly, when it's really cold you get a notice that full power from the battery will not be available until it heats up.

All this seems to indicate to me that the battery is NOT warming itself intermittently when in idle (at least, so long as it's above -30). If it were heating itself, then the cold-related symptoms (other than decreased range) would have a lower limit as beyond that point the battery would heat. It makes me think that my phantom drain is coming from somewhere else.

Unfortunately, I can't find anything that online that talks about cold weather battery behaviour in Teslas, so it's hard to verify anything.

The car has a battery management system that's entire mission in life is to preserve the life of the battery. It absolutely would use the vehicle motors to keep the battery from getting dangerously cold in extreme weather and this will contribute to vampire loss. I'm not sure why you are doubting Tesla on this. We're not talking about the huge amounts of warming that are necessary to allow safe charging in below freezing temperatures, we're talking about just enough energy expenditure to prevent permanent damage to the battery cells.

Cold weather battery warming question | Tesla

I

 

[navguy12]

Thanks for the input. I'm still not sure that the battery is expending energy to heat itself when it's cold out (though not less than -30). Consider the very fact that those dotted lines do appear, indicating that the battery is cold - and the extent of the dotted lines varies with the temperature; the colder it is, the more dots there are. Similarly, when it's really cold you get a notice that full power from the battery will not be available until it heats up.

All this seems to indicate to me that the battery is NOT warming itself intermittently when in idle (at least, so long as it's above -30). If it were heating itself, then the cold-related symptoms (other than decreased range) would have a lower limit as beyond that point the battery would heat. It makes me think that my phantom drain is coming from somewhere else.

Unfortunately, I can't find anything that online that talks about cold weather battery behaviour in Teslas, so it's hard to verify anything.

My opinion: the colder it gets, the more battery conditioning will take place.

Cars like the Bolt and the Kona actually breakout and show, as a %, where the energy goes while the car is on.

One of those silos where the energy goes to is "battery conditioning".

Check the Bolt and/or Kona threads.

The exact chemistry of our batteries are different than Bolt/Kona, but the underlying physical limitations of the overall technology is the same.

From what I've been told, one of those limits is a L-ion battery cannot be charged when it (the internal temperature of the pac) is at 0c or below.

So the closer the pac temperature gets to 0c, the more energy will be spent managing it.

Anecdote: my car lives in a very insulated garage kept at 8c in winter. Prior to the garage heating season, my car was emitting enough heat from the chassis that one could feel it......plus the garage was staying at 15c or above while exterior temperatures dropped to, but were still above, 0c. First winter in 17 winters that has happened. My Model 3 was acting as a huge radiator.

 

[Jaguar]

I am super interested in your results, just being north of you in Madison. This has been my biggest hold back on getting an M3 -- range anxiety in extreme cold. I don;t think I could make it madison to milwaukee in the cold on a charge.

Are you planning on charging your to the max on Monday and seeing how much you lose? Your observations would be very helpful

Madison to Milwaukee is only 80 miles. You'll have no trouble getting there and back on a single charge at any temperature in a M3 (with lots to spare). I speak from experience.

 

[Silicon Desert]

Not sure what was going on with your display.

The motor can't spin without driving the car -the transmission has one gear that is always engaged.

Transmission? There is no transmission.

 

[ricohman]

Transmission? There is no transmission.

It sure does. Fixed gear or not it is still a transmission.

 

[navguy12]

The car has a battery management system that's entire mission in life is to preserve the life of the battery. It absolutely would use the vehicle motors to keep the battery from getting dangerously cold in extreme weather and this will contribute to vampire loss. I'm not sure why you are doubting Tesla on this. We're not talking about the huge amounts of warming that are necessary to allow safe charging in below freezing temperatures, we're talking about just enough energy expenditure to prevent permanent damage to the battery cells.

Cold weather battery warming question | Tesla

I

Thanks for that link, it seems to summarize everything nicely.

 

[mswlogo]

I have been using a 110v outlet at work mainly to keep the battery warm and to minimize vampire drain throughout the day.

Basically if it is below freezing it will not gain any charge. Depending on how cold it is, it will loose charge while plugged in as well.

This comment is pretty misleading.

Neither of those are true by just plugging in.

Now if you are topping off (charging) throughout the day at work then sure. Or for piece of mind and pre-heat before you go home.

Keep in mind also whether you are charging or not you will still lose the same energy (vampire drain) charging or not.

If you just finished charging (meaning SOC is at the Limit you set) it has to drop 5% (I think) before it would start the charge back up on it's own. I would hope that doesn't happen within a days work. And it won't do any battery heating unless your cabin heat is on or battery is below -20F or you are charging. That would be incredibly expensive if it did heat the battery when not one of those conditions.

I don't think being on "Shore Power" moves any "vampire loads" to "Shore Power" either. I see similar Vampire Drain plugged in or not.

It does appear to do some trickery when Cabin Heat is on, when plugged in though. The UMC or WallConnector shows when power is being delivered to the car. UMC also pulls the same watts plugged into a sleeping car as it does unplugged.

 

[ricohman]

This comment is pretty misleading.

Neither of those are true by just plugging in.

Now if you are topping off (charging) throughout the day at work then sure. Or for piece of mind and pre-heat before you go home.

Keep in mind also whether you are charging or not you will still lose the same energy (vampire drain) charging or not.

If you just finished charging (meaning SOC is at the Limit you set) it has to drop 5% (I think) before it would start the charge back up on it's own. I would hope that doesn't happen within a days work. And it won't do any battery heating unless your cabin heat is on or battery is below -20F or you are charging. That would be incredibly expensive if it did heat the battery when not one of those conditions.

I don't think being on "Shore Power" moves any "vampire loads" to "Shore Power" either. I see similar Vampire Drain plugged in or not.

It does appear to do some trickery when Cabin Heat is on, when plugged in though. The UMC or WallConnector shows when power is being delivered to the car. UMC also pulls the same watts plugged into a sleeping car as it does unplugged.

The Tesla dealer in Calgary told me all I have to do is plug it in to any 110. And the battery heaters and stuff do the rest no matter the temp. And it will always be fully charged.

 

[mswlogo]

The Tesla dealer in Calgary told me all I have to do is plug it in to any 110. And the battery heaters and stuff do the rest no matter the temp. And it will always be fully charged.

If you are going on say a trip for week or something you can think of it that way. But what it will do is Vampire Drain until it's 5% below your limit then charge up to your limit. That might happen every few days. It will only keep your battery warm enough for that charge, AFTER the charge starts. It does NOT "keep it warm". If it's real cold out that's super inefficient as well. And you could be spending a lot of energy heating only to charge 5%.

What I would do is charge it to 90% then set the limit to 50% and expect it to never charge while I'm gone. Then Charge back to my daily routine 1/2 day before I return.

For the case I was responding to, it does not apply to "at work" because the car should not vampire drop that much in one work day to kick in the charge. His comment implied he was not charging at work and just plugging in to cover vampire drain and "keep battery warm". It does not work that way.

 

[ricohman]

If you are going on say a trip for week or something you can think of it that way. But what it will do is Vampire Drain until it's 5% below your limit then charge up to your limit. That might happen every few days. It will only keep your battery warm enough for that charge, AFTER the charge starts. It does NOT "keep it warm". If it's real cold out that's super inefficient as well. And you could be spending a lot of energy heating only to charge 5%.

What I would do is charge it to 90% then set the limit to 50% and expect it to never charge while I'm gone. Then Charge back to my daily routine 1/2 day before I return.

For the case I was responding to, it does not apply to "at work" because the car should not vampire drop that much in one work day to kick in the charge. His comment implied he was not charging at work and just plugging in to cover vampire drain and "keep battery warm". It does not work that way.

That was my question for the Dealer. They said plug it in at work to keep the battery warm and fully charged.

 

[mswlogo]

That was my question for the Dealer. They said plug it in at work to keep the battery warm and fully charged.

If you are charging at work, great go for it. If it's not charging it's not doing a thing.

If you are never moving your limit, and charging at home or at work or both then your charging.
Once the charge is done. It's not gonna keep the battery warm or cover vampire drain within a day.

If you are perpetually charging at work because it's only 110, then yeah it would effectively keep the battery warm and you would not see the vampire drain (even though the energy lost by the car still happens). Someone is just paying to put it back by charging.