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Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap) SpaceX and Boeing Developments

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#181
mongo said:
I think SpaceX only has two Crew Dragons, so it will likely go on to other missions as well
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My understanding is that the Crew Dragons are designed to be reused many times, just like the current Dragons used for ferrying cargo to the ISS. The first time a Dragon was reused was mid-2017, and now SpaceX has done it again.

Considering that Dragon enters the atmosphere at about 16,000mph, or approximately 5 times as fast as a typical F9 first stage, putting tremendous stress on the vehicle, and that Dragon also gets dunked in corrosive saltwater, reusing a Dragon is a tremendous accomplishment. We all know how difficult it proved to be to reuse the Space Shuttle; it required enormous amounts of money, a lengthy period of time, and even then there were mission failures with catastrophic results.

If only NASA had not wimped out and disallowed SpaceX from conducting retropropulsive Dragon landings. Surely that would make reuse easier by avoiding the saltwater bath.
 
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#182
ecarfan said:
My understanding is that the Crew Dragons are designed to be reused many times, just like the current Dragons used for ferrying cargo to the ISS. The first time a Dragon was reused was mid-2017, and now SpaceX has done it again.

Considering that Dragon enters the atmosphere at about 16,000mph, or approximately 5 times as fast as a typical F9 first stage, putting tremendous stress on the vehicle, and that Dragon also gets dunked in corrosive saltwater, reusing a Dragon is a tremendous accomplishment. We all know how difficult it proved to be to reuse the Space Shuttle; it required enormous amounts of money, a lengthy period of time, and even then there were mission failures with catastrophic results.

If only NASA had not wimped out and disallowed SpaceX from conducting retropropulsive Dragon landings. Surely that would make reuse easier by avoiding the saltwater bath.
Click to expand...

Yah.
The amount of dragon exposed to the salt water is fairly minimal (along with time of exposure). Cargo dragon has it easier in that it lacks the abort thrusters that will need decontaminated post recovery. I expect those can be swapped out for fresh ones and refurbished separately after a fresh water spray down of the capsule.
 
#183
SpaceX had 4 crew dragons they were working on simultaneously over a year ago. If I remember correctly there was a picture posted showing all four in their early phase of construction at one time.

At a bare minimum, SpaceX needs at least three D2's upcoming. They need one for uncrewed DM1, IFA test, and the crewed DM2 mission. None of those will be reused since this first Commercial Crew contract demanded all new Dragons for each mission. I expect, but do not know for certain, that all of these Dragons will be reused for Cargo Dragon missions for CRS-2.
 
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#184
Grendal said:
At a bare minimum, SpaceX needs at least three D2's upcoming. They need one for uncrewed DM1, IFA test, and the crewed DM2 mission. None of those will be reused since this first Commercial Crew contract demanded all new Dragons for each mission. I expect, but do not know for certain, that all of these Dragons will be reused for Cargo Dragon missions for CRS-2.
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If I remember correctly the IFA demo was originally scheduled to fly before DM1. Later on they swapped the order of the DM1 and IFA flights I believe to reuse the DM1 Crew Dragon for the IFA demo. Either way they'll need several Crew Dragons before they get into regular crew rotation flights.
 
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#185
I don't think this article has received much attention, but there's some interesting astronaut feedback describing development of both Crew Dragon and Boeing's Starliner.
This veteran NASA astronaut has tried SpaceX and Boeing's new spaceships — here's what she thinks

With NASA poised to announce crew assignments at anytime, Suni Williams (she's part of what they jokingly call the Commercial Crew Cadre) thinks after the crew selections are made, deliberate mission training will take about year. The article also references the current planned late 2018 crewed launch timetable, but I'd lean more towards her time estimate. It seems likely that the earliest crewed SpaceX/Boeing flights might not happen until next summer. So if this CCC space race does get extended, it'll be to make sure both companies get everything right.
 
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#186
A just released GAO report confirms that the final Commercial Crew certification dates for SpaceX and Boeing will likely get pushed out to late 2019 or into 2020. The worry is that after November 2019 NASA doesn't have a contingency plan in place for access to the ISS. Eric Berger authored this article, where he has also placed a link to the GAO report.
Internally, NASA believes Boeing ahead of SpaceX in commercial crew

It might be a bit dramatic to state that Boeing has a slight lead over SpaceX. Apparently Boeing gets extra credit for their experience at turning in necessary documentation earlier than SpaceX. SpaceX seems to have addressed NASA's risks concerns, they just need to finish out some testing. One glaring risk that might bite Boeing is their parachute system. There's a good chance that NASA is going to require them to re-engineer the system, which will set them back at least another six months.
 
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#187
Nikxice said:
A just released GAO report confirms that the final Commercial Crew certification dates for SpaceX and Boeing will likely get pushed out to late 2019 or into 2020. The worry is that after November 2019 NASA doesn't have a contingency plan in place for access to the ISS. Eric Berger authored this article, where he has also placed a link to the GAO report.
Internally, NASA believes Boeing ahead of SpaceX in commercial crew

It might be a bit dramatic to state that Boeing has a slight lead over SpaceX. Apparently Boeing gets extra credit for their experience at turning in necessary documentation earlier than SpaceX. SpaceX seems to have addressed NASA's risks concerns, they just need to finish out some testing. One glaring risk that might bite Boeing is their parachute system. There's a good chance that NASA is going to require them to re-engineer the system, which will set them back at least another six months.
Click to expand...

From the Business Insider article:
It (NASA) wants Boeing and SpaceX's spacecraft to have less than a 1-in-200 chance of killing a crew in an accident — three times less than the space shuttle."

I'm far from expert on risk analysis, but it seems to me NASA is unnecessarily slowing development of Commercial Crew spacecraft in trying to make them much, much, much safer than the Shuttle . The shuttle inherently had major risks due to having no capability to rapidly separate during a launch if the solid fuel boosters exploded and land safely. Having the liquid fueled engines as part of the shuttle vehicle meant that one of them malfunctioning and exploding would kill all on board. Reentering the atmosphere and managing the reentry temperatures with a crew capsule and single heat shield segment is many times less risk than the vastly more complex tiles and leading edges in the shuttle. Just considering those three, I don't follow how the new vehicles will 'only' be 3 times less risky than the shuttle was supposed to be. If fundamental design differences like these three already make the new craft 5 or more times safer than shuttle, then in the current situation (having no plan B to service the ISS after the last contracted Soyez) it seems foolish to delay getting them operational and then continuing in the years to come to find ways to further decrease risk. I'm curious to see if more knowledgeable members can shoot this napkin analysis to pieces.
 
#189
#192
NASA is set to announce the first commercial crew assignments for SpaceX and Boeing on Friday, Aug. 3rd at 11am EDT. Initial reports mentioned this would take place at KSC with Pence, but it now appears the event will happen in Houston, hosted by NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine. There's also been some talk of flight schedules, but with the recent GAO report stressing delays, this seems doubtful. The event will be broadcast live on NASA TV | NASA, followed by an astronaut Reddit Ask Me Anything session at 12:30pm EDT, www.reddit.com/r/AMA/

SpaceX will be flying two NASA astronauts, Boeing's likely to only fly one, along with Chris Ferguson. Astro number four might have to grin and bear it next Friday morning, heck even Apollo 13 CM backup pilot Jack Swigert eventually became a hero!
 
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#193
Nikxice said:
NASA is set to announce the first commercial crew assignments for SpaceX and Boeing on Friday, Aug. 3rd at 11am EDT. Initial reports mentioned this would take place at KSC with Pence, but it now appears the event will happen in Houston, hosted by NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine. There's also been some talk of flight schedules, but with the recent GAO report stressing delays, this seems doubtful. The event will be broadcast live on NASA TV | NASA, followed by an astronaut Reddit Ask Me Anything session at 12:30pm EDT, www.reddit.com/r/AMA/

SpaceX will be flying two NASA astronauts, Boeing's likely to only fly one, along with Chris Ferguson. Astro number four might have to grin and bear it next Friday morning, heck even Apollo 13 CM backup pilot Jack Swigert eventually became a hero!
Click to expand...

The rumor is that NASA will announce the dates for the non-crewed launches. The crewed launches may be delayed and the recent issue with Starliner will probably force a delay with them and allow SpaceX to get the first crewed launch in.
 
#195
Another issue is that NASA may be way behind in developing a modern Space Suit for their crews to function. There older ones are absolete and clumsy.
Tesla has their own space suite. I remember Starman was wearing one when they launched Elon's roadster into orbit.
 
#196
Uncle Paul said:
Another issue is that NASA may be way behind in developing a modern Space Suit for their crews to function. There older ones are absolete and clumsy.
Tesla has their own space suite. I remember Starman was wearing one when they launched Elon's roadster into orbit.
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SpaceX and Boeing made their owns space suits for their crews. These space suits are only for travelling on the ships between the Earth and the ISS. These suits aren't spacewalk capable.
 
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#199
Details have emerged on Starliners incident:
Boeing Starliner launch abort motor leak traced to faulty valves. Four of 8 stuck open following 1.5-sec hot-fire of service module test article June 2. While repair underway, Boeing moving ahead w/ unmanned flight test in 5-6 mos, then launch abort & crew flight tests mid-2019
Click to expand...
Irene Klotz on Twitter
And further details on this from Eric Berger:
Eric Berger on Twitter
 
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