Competing technologies to BEV

[Auzie]

BMW seem to have difficulties making up their mind about i5/i7

New rumours on BMW i5 (or i7, not decided yet)

[FONT=proxima_novalight]The long-time rumoured midsize electric car has been mentioned before in the same sentence with the Tesla’s Model S, but has gone from an electric car to a hydrogen-based drivetrain several times. Now according to [/FONT]CAR[FONT=proxima_novalight], the i5 or i7, whichever name BMW will settle on, would arrive in 2018 and it’s known internally as the F18 PHEV project.

[/FONT][FONT=proxima_novalight]It[/FONT][FONT=proxima_novalight]’s based around the long-wheelbase four-door 5 Series architecture designed for China.

[/FONT][FONT=proxima_novalight]The layout actually is allegedly like an i8 with the combustion engine up front and the main e-motor in the back. Although it is labelled PHEV, is in fact an electric vehicle with a more powerful range extender. The i5/i7 boasts two e-motors. Depending on the driving situation and the momentary performance duties, it can be electric front-wheel drive, electric rear-wheel drive or petrol-electric all-wheel drive.[/FONT]

Very difficult to let go of petrol bit.

:love::love::love:. ..................................................:love::love::love:

 

[Auzie]

Hot

McLaren lighter, longer supercar revealed

675LT features an uprated 3.8-litre twin-turbocharged V8 that produces 497kW of power and 700Nm of torque

675LT is only 34mm longer than the 650S thanks to a larger active Airbrake. Thanks to its carbon fibre construction the larger Airbrake is lighter than that found on the 650S.

Other unique design touches on the 675LT include circular rear exhaust outlets, a larger carbon fibre front splitter, and an extra cooling intake nestled inside larger door blades.

Combined, the power fillip and weight loss brings the 675LT's official 0-100km/h time down to 2.9 seconds, its 0-200km/h time to 7.9 seconds and a top speed of 300km/h.

:love::love::love:

 

[mspohr]

New rumours on BMW i5 (or i7, not decided yet)



Very difficult to let go of petrol bit.

View attachment 73290

:love::love::love:. ..................................................:love::love::love:

Sounds like a frankencar.

 

[Auzie]

Sounds like a frankencar.

Combustion engine must be part of the future, one way or the other

It is like a protected species

 

[FluxCap]

Not going to bother posting about Porsche's yawn-inspiring "hypothetical EV" to add to the "hypothetical" GM, Audi and BMW competition.

But I will post this, because it's freakin' awesome:
Dark Horse: the story of a record-shattering, all-electric ’68 Mustang | The Verge

I really look forward to my 5-year old son being able to tweak/tinker with/hot rod his BEV someday. Maybe this is a beginning.

 

[kenliles]

Not going to bother posting about Porsche's yawn-inspiring "hypothetical EV" to add to the "hypothetical" GM, Audi and BMW competition.

But I will post this, because it's freakin' awesome:
Dark Horse: the story of a record-shattering, all-electric ’68 Mustang | The Verge

I really look forward to my 5-year old son being able to tweak/tinker with/hot rod his BEV someday. Maybe this is a beginning.

Best quote in that re: market of unique cars:
"frankly, Tesla's are rare anymore" -
thank goodness

thanks for the post Flux!

 

[Johan]

BTW did you guys see the Toyota Mirai's new "Inane mode"? 0-60 in 9 seconds. No wait that's standard mode...

Also did you see how much Toyota belives in the Mirai? It's getting super special treatment:

"Toyota will be manufacturing the fuel cell vehicles in the same area where it put together the Lexus LFA supercar. The assembly team, which is composed of 13 people, will be manually assembling the Mirai units to produce three cars daily without the usage of conveyors that are commonly seen in mass-production facilities, Toyota Motomachi plant assistant manager Mitsuyuki Suenaga said to reporters."

 

[austinEV]

BTW did you guys see the Toyota Mirai's new "Inane mode"? 0-60 in 9 seconds. No wait that's standard mode...

Also did you see how much Toyota belives in the Mirai? It's getting super special treatment:

"Toyota will be manufacturing the fuel cell vehicles in the same area where it put together the Lexus LFA supercar. The assembly team, which is composed of 13 people, will be manually assembling the Mirai units to produce three cars daily without the usage of conveyors that are commonly seen in mass-production facilities, Toyota Motomachi plant assistant manager Mitsuyuki Suenaga said to reporters."

Oh my goodness the "stations" map is beyond sad: Toyota Mirai – The Turning Point

 

[Johan]

Oh my goodness the "stations" map is beyond sad: Toyota Mirai – The Turning Point

I don't get the map. What is a "supporter" station?

Nice if Tesla did this with SCs. Red for "here's one" and grey for "it'd be cool if we put one here"

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Oh my goodness the "stations" map is beyond sad: Toyota Mirai – The Turning Point

...one can argue they have to start somewhere, and ICEs started somewhere too.

That said, even while Tesla's and EVs in general charging maps originally were pretty sad (still are in many places), the difference there is home "fuelling". I for one would become an AnxietyRanger in a Mirai very fast and in a completely new fashion, that's for sure.

Also, that fuel cell diagram is not instilling me with warm and fuzzy feelings of simplicity and beauty... Fuel cells and alternatives to ICE are interesting, but color me unimpressed so far.

 

[hiroshiy]

BTW did you guys see the Toyota Mirai's new "Inane mode"? 0-60 in 9 seconds. No wait that's standard mode...

Also did you see how much Toyota belives in the Mirai? It's getting super special treatment:

"Toyota will be manufacturing the fuel cell vehicles in the same area where it put together the Lexus LFA supercar. The assembly team, which is composed of 13 people, will be manually assembling the Mirai units to produce three cars daily without the usage of conveyors that are commonly seen in mass-production facilities, Toyota Motomachi plant assistant manager Mitsuyuki Suenaga said to reporters."

I think it's another side of the fact that the vehicle is too complex to build on a conveyor. The only hand manufacture line they chose to use. Not a special treatment IMHO. Only governments just buy those for Tsukiai, keeping relationships well.

In Japan we have "mobile" FC stations; i.e. they didn't have enough money to have a fixed FC station. At one place in the morning, another place in the afternoon.

 

[Johan]

I think it's another side of the fact that the vehicle is too complex to build on a conveyor. The only hand manufacture line they chose to use. Not a special treatment IMHO. Only governments just buy those for Tsukiai, keeping relationships well.

In Japan we have "mobile" FC stations; i.e. they didn't have enough money to have a fixed FC station. At one place in the morning, another place in the afternoon.

I was being ironical. The paragraph quoted above is an attempt to spin the fact that cars like this are extremely expensive to make, are hand built and in very small numbers, in to something positive.

 

[austinEV]

...one can argue they have to start somewhere, and ICEs started somewhere too.

That said, even while Tesla's and EVs in general charging maps originally were pretty sad (still are in many places), the difference there is home "fuelling". I for one would become an AnxietyRanger in a Mirai very fast and in a completely new fashion, that's for sure.

Also, that fuel cell diagram is not instilling me with warm and fuzzy feelings of simplicity and beauty... Fuel cells and alternatives to ICE are interesting, but color me unimpressed so far.

Indeed, gasoline stations started rare too. Electric doesn't have this problem. There are plugs everywhere. There is electric infrastructure everywhere. Even the challenge of doing a Supercharger station pales to the challenge of a hydrogen station. We HAD to build out the zillion dollar gasoline infrastructure in the 20th century. There is no similar need to build out a massive Hydrogen network. This will be the Betamax of vehicles.

Also, hydrogen pumps cannot effectively meter how much is being taken. They don't have a viable model for even billing customers.

 

[Auzie]

Every new BMW to get a hybrid version

BMW NA CEO Ludwig Willisch on:

-future BMW models: 'every new model will have a hybrid version as well'

-on i5 and i7: 'Not anytime soon'

-and on Tesla as a competitor: 'I wouldn't say I don't see any competition. But I still see that a Series 5 BMW and a Tesla are completely different animals'.

S and X................................ BMW

Ah how could I forget roadster roaming around

 

[CHGolferJim]

Willisch doesn't mention 3 or 7 series

 

[Newb]

CA Fuel-Cell Car Drivers Say Hydrogen Fuel Unavailable, Stations Don't Work

"early lessees of hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles in Southern California are complaining that they can't reliably fuel them at the handful of stations now supposedly operating in their region. The stations are frequently inoperative, they say, closed for days or weeks at a time.

[...] Moreover, when the stations are functioning properly, they sometimes can only fuel one or two cars before an hour-long wait is required--and some stations can only fuel the cars to half-full. A private Facebook group for drivers of the Hyundai Tucson Fuel Cell SUV overflows with complaints about these issues, and the lack of accountability among the several different parties who oversee pieces of the nascent hydrogen fueling infrastructure."

So much about the superiority of fool cells and hydrogen storage and distribution...

 

[austinEV]

CA Fuel-Cell Car Drivers Say Hydrogen Fuel Unavailable, Stations Don't Work

"early lessees of hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles in Southern California are complaining that they can't reliably fuel them at the handful of stations now supposedly operating in their region. The stations are frequently inoperative, they say, closed for days or weeks at a time.

[...] Moreover, when the stations are functioning properly, they sometimes can only fuel one or two cars before an hour-long wait is required--and some stations can only fuel the cars to half-full. A private Facebook group for drivers of the Hyundai Tucson Fuel Cell SUV overflows with complaints about these issues, and the lack of accountability among the several different parties who oversee pieces of the nascent hydrogen fueling infrastructure."

So much about the superiority of fool cells and hydrogen storage and distribution...

Wow, that is crazy bad. The supporters of H2 should be throwing resources at this. If you buy into the consipiracy theory that the old guard wants to support H2 to discredit pure EV, then doubly so. They are taking the one advantage of H2 (ordinary, fast fueling) and turning it into the false complaint levelled at Pure EV's, namely that it takes a long time and you have to wait at superchargers. My personal consipiracy theory is that H2 proponents want to be seen to support it, find that the public doesn't buy them, then use that as an argument to water down CARB requirements on the logic that people hate AF vehicles. But to do this just undermines everything. It undermines real adoption, and it undermines the false narrative that "we tried, everyone hates them". I mean these drivers must be switching to their other cars right? No way would I dependon on a FCV if the fuel supply was iffy.

 

[Newb]

Wow, that is crazy bad. The supporters of H2 should be throwing resources at this. If you buy into the consipiracy theory that the old guard wants to support H2 to discredit pure EV, then doubly so. They are taking the one advantage of H2 (ordinary, fast fueling) and turning it into the false complaint levelled at Pure EV's, namely that it takes a long time and you have to wait at superchargers. My personal consipiracy theory is that H2 proponents want to be seen to support it, find that the public doesn't buy them, then use that as an argument to water down CARB requirements on the logic that people hate AF vehicles. But to do this just undermines everything. It undermines real adoption, and it undermines the false narrative that "we tried, everyone hates them". I mean these drivers must be switching to their other cars right? No way would I dependon on a FCV if the fuel supply was iffy.

yep, this is really crazy bad. :biggrin: I mean, digest that: you live in California which is kind of a pilot project state for hydrogen fuel stations. you drive this utterly expensive hydrogen-fool-cell-car through town and your tank is getting close to being empty. You go to one of those massively expensive hydrogen fueling stations, and it's just closed and nobody notified you or your car.

What do you do then? You're stranded there, and the best thing: nobody cares. No party involved feels responsible. And then, even if it is open, and you're unlucky enough that some other early adopter of FCVs has just successfully managed to refuel, you've got to wait an hour to get refilled to half tank (which is a theoretical range of just about ~150 miles, btw). Then you go home and the next day you wake up with the uncomfortable feeling that you couldn't recharge to 100% over night, you cannot rely on the hydrogen fueling stations but you're totally dependent - every single day of your life you depend on those crappy hydrogen fueling stations.

And about the responsibility/accountability issue: If hydrogen is so inexpensive to produce, efficient to distribute, and in general the "bright future" of fuels, why the heck nobody takes care of non-functioning fueling stations? Imagine Tesla did this with superchargers and totally frustrate early-adopters - they'd severly damage their business model and the integrity of their vision of free and clean long-distance travel. It's either just unbelieveably dumb action from the hydrogen people or this whole hydrogen idea does only work on paper, but surely not in reality. Poor poor early-adopters...

 

[atang]

Okay @austinEV and @Newb, You guys are so correct in your calling BS on Hydrogen. But I already had to clean coffee off my screen and keybord once, now twice! You guys are having entirely too much fun with this matter. But hay, I'm laughing right along with both of you! :tongue:

 

[Johan]

One alternative view could be that this whole fiasco with hydrogen cars coming to market extremely slowly, with poor performance, with a completely non-functioning infrastructure etc. is an intentional strategy from the ICE makers aimed at demonstrating to the world that going away from ICEs (with the exception of small battery hybrids) is oh so difficult and will take decades. And that consumers just need to accept this and keep buying gasoline powered cars.

And actually this strategy would have worked perfectly, with small, short range, weird looking EVs as a super niche product if it weren't for Tesla coming along really stirring the pot and throwing the big car makers off their game.

See, they had planned on having decades to devest their ICE factories, dealer systems, to build up in house expertise etc. Not 5-10 years or whatever Tesla is doing to the market.