Concerns about waiting in line for superchargers

[dsm363]

i checked with my neighbor who's a sheriff about this. As tesla hasn't put up the proper signage. However if you notice. There ARE the green lines painted on the ground....therefore if the police were called a warning would be issued to any car(s) that are parked in the superchargers. It would also possibly cause the hotel enough heat to warn their patrons NOT to park in the stalls. I have used the chargers several times and haven't ever been ICED....however it's a very busy area and could see how it could easily happen...

Thanks. If green lines are there and there is a sign saying electric car charging then they are legal and people can be ticketed. The Tesla charging signs may not be exactly what they are looking for. Would be a very simple fix if Tesla is allowed to install those signs. If would effectively make them Tesla only spots as other EVs could park there but they couldn't plug in and charge to comply with the law.

 

[David99]

Rather than a mistake, the more likely explanation is the property owner refused to provide all the spots to Tesla on an exclusive basis. Tesla certainly doesn't "buy" spaces and they've said the leases are for a nominal fee if anything.

Uhm, that's exactly what I'm saying. They put a Supercharger in a location where they can't get or don't want to pay for exclusive parking for them. That's a mistake on Tesla's side when it's a busy location. What else can be done? Maybe ask Blink or EVGo what they have done to get exclusive parking for their CHAdeMO chargers. They are exclusive. I see many parking structures where several spots are reserved for some nearby businesses. A local car dealer here ran out of space and has an entire level in a parking lot that is usually for a mall. The dealer is sure paying for that. Tesla just doesn't want to pay for it. At least yet.

 

[Owner]

I agree with Cottonwood. I hold the odd/dubious record of the person who has visited the most superchargers. I have never been ICEd. Only once in Fremont, CA I took the last stall.

Let's not try to solve a problem before it's gets even close to happening.

I have been to 28 Superchargers. I have never had to wait (got close in Hawthorne and Barstow), and have NEVER had a problem because a Supercharger was ICEd.

The only place where I have seen an ICE'ing problem even close to happing was in Glenwood Springs at the Marriott Residence Inn. There they put the Supercharger Stalls in a very prime location and were getting ICEd regularly by lazy, late-arriving hotel guests. The hotel management took on the problem and put little orange cones in front of the stalls. Most Tesla drivers understand, move the cones when they charge, and move the back when they leave; simple solution to a simple problem.

No reason to go to battle until we start seeing hints of a problem. Even then, small solutions will often work well. No reason to make enemies right away...

 

[islandbayy]

I use all of Wisconsin's 5 Superchargers Regularly. The most (Other then my Planned Tesla Picnic Event I hosted) was 2 other Model S's, and that was only on 2 occasions. Once in Pleasant Prairie which has 8 Supercharger Stalls, and second time in Madison, where their are only 3 Supercharger Stalls (Mall owners changed mind and limited it from 6 down to 3 spaces despite LOTS of parking...)The Madison is the only one I have concerns about. Every other SC in Wisconsin has 6-8 Stalls. Just Madison with 3. And thats the WORST one to only have 3, as thats on the way to the Midwest's biggest tourist city, Wisconsin Dells.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Maybe ask Blink or EVGo what they have done to get exclusive parking for their CHAdeMO chargers.

The difference is that Blink/EVGo typically only takes one or two spots, while Tesla takes 4-10 spots. That narrows down the choices. Also, the electrical requirement of a CHAdeMO station (25-50kW) is hugely different from a supercharger station (240kW-600kW), which also narrow down the choices.

 

[bonnie]

On a lighter note ...

ICE shaming

 

[ModelX]

I don't have a tesla yet, but my family and I have stopped at the Ellensburg charger several times. We followed the building progress, obtained photos and have tried to spot Tesla's with the kids. We have never seen a tesla, or an ICE in any of the spots. not sure that ICIng is a routine problem.

 

[Alysashley79]

Thanks. If green lines are there and there is a sign saying electric car charging then they are legal and people can be ticketed. The Tesla charging signs may not be exactly what they are looking for. Would be a very simple fix if Tesla is allowed to install those signs. If would effectively make them Tesla only spots as other EVs could park there but they couldn't plug in and charge to comply with the law.

Dsm. Correct. Correct. They won't get an actual ticket but they will get a warning ticket from the police. May be enough to not do it again.

 

[NoCO]

The parking space is served by charging equipment that has as its primary purpose the transfer of electric energy to a battery or other energy storage device in an electric vehicle.

It would be an interesting argument that the thousands of dollars of equipment, permitting and construction did not install equipment who's primary purpose was not the transfer of electric energy to a Tesla (EV).

A 110V plug (nor a NEMA ) could not be considered a primary purpose to transfer energy to an electric vehicle. Is there a grandfather clause in the law that would exempt spaces that existed before the law...

It would appear the only way to be sure of what the actual language is would be to have it challenged in court. First step, if you are at this super charger and all the spaces are ICE'd I'd contact the authorities and refer them to this law. While the law is new it would be interesting to see how that section is being interpreted.

I really don't understand some of the exchanges on this thread.

Edit...
Many of the posts in this thread were moved to off topic..

 

[golfski]

I disagree with this. In short, you're suggesting that it's better not to have the stalls at all. More working stalls is better, period.

We can agree to disagree If only there was more of that going on here, haha

But, I am not suggesting that. I am saying they should not be compromising on the SC network. More working stalls is certainly better than less. But, more dedicated stalls is better than more enabled ones. Superchargers are meant to be enable fast charging while on road trips that exceed the range of your battery. No doubt Tesla has engineered a sustainable and somewhat reasonable mechanism of delivering a charge to a car as fast as possible, but that does me no good if its not accessible. It may be true now that ICE'ing is not a problem because there are other stalls open, but think of how that situation looks a couple years from now when we are doubling the number of Tesla's on the road each year (not sure thats an actual stat, just observation based on their continuos increase in factory output). In a location that has a portion of "enabled" stalls, you are not only competing against the rising numbers of Tesla's on the road, but also "general" parking.

In a place that has 40 additional spots to these 5, I don't think Tesla should compromise when negotiating these deals. I personally don't think the spots at Ellensburg are premo spots, they may look like they are in the front of the hotel, but they are actually on the side. The entrance to the front is on the adjacent side, with a large parking lot in front of it. These spots are actually in an awkward area that connects a number of parking lots (hotel, restaurant and starbucks drive-thru).

Again, I just think they should be focusing on "dedicated" spots if that is what ensures the least possible charge time for as many drivers as possible. To me, the speed of charge is more than the technical delivery of electrons to the battery, but the time I have to spend off the road. While I certainly appreciate a leisure drive on no-ones time other than my own, this is not always life, especially with small children EV adoption will be more successful if built around peoples existing needs and lifestyles, verse trying to change their ways to fit EV infrastructure. The fact is we are already compromising our lifestyle by stopping for 20-40 minutes every 100-150 miles. I have driven hundreds of long road trips, where I stopped only to refill gas and was back on the road in 5-10 minutes every 300-400 miles, Tesla should be doing everything in their power to make that stop as quick as possible, with both technology and policy.

But, give me a CHaDeMo adapter and I don't care anymore

 

[RiverBrick]

The only place where I have seen an ICE'ing problem even close to happing was in Glenwood Springs at the Marriott Residence Inn. There they put the Supercharger Stalls in a very prime location and were getting ICEd regularly by lazy, late-arriving hotel guests. The hotel management took on the problem and put little orange cones in front of the stalls.

Are you from Texas? Those cones looked huge to me. 4-feet tall and the attached violators will be towed signs makes them look even bigger.

The Marriott's lot was almost full (except for the empty SpC spots) so I can see why ICEIng was once an issue.

 

[brianman]

Yah, we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm glad we have the existing spots and I hope they continue to "compromise" to allow aggressive rollout to continue.

As to "a couple years from now", at this point it should be painfully obvious to both establishments hosting superchargers and the general populace what these (no longer) shiny (or) new charging spots are all about and they'll likely either (a) steer cleer of them [as I have faith in the common man to eventually "get it"] and (b) not have a chance to ICE the spots because the traffic flow from Tesla vehicles will keep them occupied properly.

 

[NoCO]

@NoCO - By your interpretation, are these two statements the same?


If they are not the same, how are they different?

[Public school graduate]. By my reading they are not the same. One explicitly defines what a electric vehicle charging station equipment is, the other is generic so there is more room for interpretation on the second than the first, so I could say that spot with the 110 outlet on the wall or the NEMA plug is an EV charging spot and that RV is preventing me from charging.

Based on what I have read in this thread, I think we all agree that this is a private parking space that has installed on it charging equipment that has as its primary purpose the transfer of electric energy to a...blah..blah electric vehicle.

You can see the section mentions the equipments primary purpose not the parking space. In reading it the only explicit mention of the parking spot is whether it is served by charging equipment for an EV.

The second version is changing the statue to make the space and not the equipments primary purpose (again public school gradute) of a EV charging spot. I'm not a lawyer but I think one could make the argument that the law would apply to these spots.

You seem to be arguing that they are not. I would be interested to see who prevailed in court.

 

[brianman]

What I'm arguing is that while the poor grammar suggests that the "primary" is applied to the role of the "equipment", the intent was likely that it apply to the role of the parking spot.

Let me give you another example.

1. Take an 18 wheeler with an open flatbed attached.
2. Put a dozen EVSEs on the bed.
3. Put a gas powered generator next to each EVSE (on the bed).
4. Start all of #2 and #3.
5. Move the 18 wheeler into a grocery parking lot.
6. Park 12 Teslas around the 18 wheeler and plug them in.

Clearly the "primary purpose" of all dozen EVSEs is "the transfer of electric energy to a battery... in an electric vehicle".

As such, by (my understanding of) your interpretation of the intent (again, I agree with you on the grammar... I'm arguing the intent) of the statute is that all the parking spaces occupied by the 18 wheeler and the dozen Teslas should be marked with EV signage.

Correct? If not, why not?

// IANAL

 

[NoCO]

I have not read the comments made by the legislator on what their intent was in passing this law. Again from my limited knowledge it would be for the courts to decide. My belief is that this law was written to prevent someone from blocking access to a parking space that is served by a charger, further I think we both agree that the equipment installed on those spaces is not temporary and I would consider it permanent.

I personally believe by my laymen reading that a parking space that serves as a EV charging station should be available. I understand you are concerned that if this law stands as I think it would, there will be fewer super chargers...that might be true. As an owner of a 100% EV, I don't want to be denied access to a charger when I need to charge it and the vehicle blocking is not actively charging.

I can understand some, when I drive through a parking lot and see empty parking spaces that are designated charging stations that isn't good either. This is something that I believe will be fine tuned with further law. Perhaps allowing to making EV charging spots 15/30 minute spots when not actively charging. In theory the spot is available within a limited waiting period, after that if you didn't remove the car it would be cited or towed. That happens every day here in L.A. streets so I don't think many drivers would hold the Tesla owner responsible, nor would the property owner be hesitant to put a super charger in.

 

[ecarfan]

Also the location is obviously wrong. It is the main parking space of the hotel. There is some element of ignorance and stubbornness on Tesla's part. If I was Elon I would fire the person who made the decision on Ellensburg. It was a super stupid decision. The ICE problems in Ellensburg can't be solved. It will only get worse.

I have not been to Ellensburg. I took a look at that location on Google Earth. It is not the "main" parking area. The main entrance to the hotel appears to be on a different side of the building at least 100 ft away from where the Superchargers are. There is a ton of parking available at that hotel nearer the main entrance.

It is correct that the Google satellite photo shows a preponderance of cars in the area where I think the Superchargers are located (satellite image probably taken before they were installed).

"Look Dave, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over." (2001: A Space Odyssey)

 

[brianman]

I understand you are concerned that if this law stands as I think it would, there will be fewer super chargers...that might be true.

Nah, I don't have any such concerns. I think Tesla has their ducks lined up on this one.

 

[NoCO]

1. Take an 18 wheeler with an open flatbed attached.
2. Put a dozen EVSEs on the bed.
3. Put a gas powered generator next to each EVSE (on the bed).
4. Start all of #2 and #3.
5. Move the 18 wheeler into a grocery parking lot.
6. Park 12 Teslas around the 18 wheeler and plug them in.


// IANAL

I like this one as I thought of it looking at the expansion SC at Hawthorne where they have installed the SC on a metal pallet. It would be great to have a rolling super charger setup for special events, one where you know a lot of Tesla's will be traveling and there isn't enough chargers would be a great idea.

You would need a pretty big generator (> 800 KW) though for 12 Tesla's.

 

[brianman]

I have not been to Ellensburg.

Random observation:
Next time I visit, I might ask them how much it would cost to use the pool while charging. Great way to spend an hour or so, and I can watch my car < 15 ft away while doing so (through the windows).

- - - Updated - - -

I like this one as I thought of it looking at the expansion SC at Hawthorne where they have installed the SC on a metal pallet. It would be great to have a rolling super charger setup for special events, one where you know a lot of Tesla's will be traveling and there isn't enough chargers would be a great idea.

You would need a pretty big generator (> 800 KW) though for 12 Tesla's.

I wish Tesla was of the mindset to embrace the track crowd openly (like Audi and BMW do). If they were, we'd have a known price for renting a pair of superchargers for an event like REFUEL.

Oh, and 12 generators was my example not 1. IIRC, cinergi's generator offers juice in the 30 kW range.
Edit: Woops, 6kW range. I think this was the one he got:
Honda EU6500i Model Info | Super Quiet 6500 Watt Inverter Generator | Honda Generators

 

[NoCO]

I think the latest SC cabinets are 135KW continuous.

So two trucks, one that has the charging equipment and the second the generator...like this one.

http://www.generac.com/all-products.../diesel-generators/800kw-2000kw-containerized

Sorry for the thread jack.