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Conspiracy Theory

Discussion in 'Energy, Environment, and Policy' started by Zwalderon, Feb 11, 2016.

  1. Zwalderon

    Zwalderon Member

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    I was reflecting on the dilemma that GM and the other auto manufacturers face in that they must cannibalize their current ICE lines and go EV or go bankrupt.
    We know that they have, and will, employ delaying tactic. One such delaying tactic: being instrumental in blocking manufacturers direct to consumer sales.
    It occurred to me that they also might be responsible for much of the Tesla bashing on the internet. If they can promote consumer and investor doubt in EVs it could
    conceivably slow the march to automobile electrification.
     
  2. Adm

    Adm Active Member

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    You just figured this out? Why do you think so many manufacturers are pushing hydrogen? It's their way of postponing the inevitable.
     
  3. tracksyde

    tracksyde Member

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  4. lsiunsuex

    lsiunsuex Member

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    I think this goes deeper then just having to do with Tesla

    As the movie and cable tv industries are slow to adopt streaming services; the car manufacturers are not only slow to adopt electric cars, but also self driving cars - Tesla is, I think, unique in that their pursuing both at the same time.

    Months ago - I forget what car show it was in regards to - but there was a lot of ignorant banter from car manufacturers regarding Google and Apple getting into cars and self driving cars.

    Any company that can't see the future or is willing to change is doomed - look at Nokia and Microsoft in the smart phone wars; look at Microsoft in the move to cloud computing systems; look at Blackberry - look at any number of companies that were pillars of their industry just a few years ago and now are a shadow of what they used to be.

    It took a Tesla to get the party started - It'll be Tesla / Google / Apple that break out the hammers and close the coffin shut in another decade or so.
     
  5. Bimbels

    Bimbels GoldMember

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  6. mkjayakumar

    mkjayakumar Active Member

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    its a three pronged attack: Legacy auto companies, Car dealers, Big Oil. They employ shills to spread FUD all over.
     
  7. Drucifer

    Drucifer Active Member

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    Legacy companies and auto dealers have the job of blocking sales.
    Oil companies have the job of spreading FUD
    Idiots have the job of repeating and reposting the FUD at every opportunity

    It's a team effort.
     
  8. tga

    tga Active Member

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    Never forget Occam's razor. It's simple economics, not a grand conspiracy.

    Big auto acts like all big companies. It's all about cutting costs/maximizing revenue. One of the biggest expenses (after people, etc) is new product development. The longer GM can push off electrification, the longer they can keep down costs. The trick (which most companies screw up) is to delay new product development as long as possible, but not so long that your less risk-averse competitors steal your business.

    Lutz spent his whole career working for big auto. Why would you expect him to do anything other than criticize hybrids (delay new product development) and criticize Tesla (the less risk-averse competitor that will steal GM's business)?

    You may convince me that GM might prefer ICE over EV's, assuming EV's need fewer spare parts. But without knowing their profit per new car sold vs average profit from parts/car, that's hard to know for sure.

    All that shows is that Lutz has absolutely no understanding of how to run a startup, in any industry.
     
  9. Breezy

    Breezy Member

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    All EVs suffer bashing, not just Tesla. I think it has more to do with a general level of ignorance and resistance to change that's common to many emerging technologies.

    GM for example, is criticized quite soundly with regard to EVs and accused of all sorts of nefarious activities, much as in your original post. I'm not going to conclude that you're a paid Tesla shill as a result; you're just expressing on opinion.

    I criticize Tesla all the time. Doesn't mean I'm not going to buy one or that I don't support EVs. I'm just not a fan of hyperbole, which happens to be something that Tesla is particularly good at.
     
  10. vjason

    vjason Member

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    Many businesses will do whatever then can to protect their markets when threatened. You can either start to innovate now, work to block the threat using legislation/other, or simply acquire the company in question.

    Innovation takes time and money. As do acquisitions. And that startup threatening you is burning cash like mad. Now burning cash is typically required to enter new markets/innovate, but it is still burning cash, and their "car for the masses" will still cost $35K bare bones, which is a LOT of money for the average auto consumer. Many of those can't even charge at home either due to one reason or another.

    I'm not saying auto companies are taking the best approach, but you can see why they might not fear Tesla. Not saying that is smart, but you can see why they might be hesitant.

    In my opinion the Tesla approach to the technology-based internals of the car as just as interesting as the drive/charging system. GM/Ford could come together and easily throw billions at developing battery suppliers, but they would have to blow up their engineering departments to be able to provide the experience of Tesla (new features via updates, etc, etc, etc).
     
  11. jeff_adams

    jeff_adams Member

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    While the car may seem like a lot of money to the average consumer, it hardly seems to matter when it comes to innovation. In 2007 many people were using Motorola Razrs which cost about $250 (a bit on the higher end for 2007 era cell phones). When the iPhone came out in '07, it cost double ($499). Guess how fast most of those Razrs got replaced by "average consumers"?
     
  12. Vince Cobelo

    Vince Cobelo Member

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    Well...I'm a Tesla investor but I'll try to take a opposite point of view.

    Big companies are very slow to "radically" innovate. They want to nudge technology forward so unless there is a catalyst, incremental leaps will never happen. (Even Elon admits he should have added features to the MX over time rather than all at once.)

    Add to that, why innovate when you can let others do it and then either buy, borrow or steal the technology and improve using scale and reduce cost because of productivity advantages. Just like the Japaneese did in the 70's and 80's. Tesla has offered open access to their patents. Why in the hell would they do that? Frankly I have no idea. To help "grow" EV adoption? Pfft. Patents are the core value of any company which is why Google, Apple, Samsung, etc. are snatching up patents from TI and so many others.

    So what is the future of Tesla? Car company...battery company...what? Maybe none of the above. But one thing is for sure. Musk is the modern day Edison (Tesla, SpaceX, Hyperloop, AI Armageddon Counsel). I'm placing my bet on management. Ignoring the macro competitive forces on this one much less the day to day ups and downs. My cost average is roughly $168. Lets see where it goes (oops this last paragraph I slipped back).
     
  13. McRat

    McRat Active Member

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    Love how GM is singled out. The World's Most Hated Company. Get over it. They are no longer the world's biggest anything. They do not drive the auto industry anymore in North America, and aren't even a scab on the arse of the global market.

    Personally, I believe Toyota is a far bigger threat to EVs than GM is.

    They have a lot more to lose than GM does. Those who buy EVs for environmental reasons or economic reasons are in direct conflict with the Prius. When prodded to produce an EV for the world's single largest market, they made the Plug In Prius. You talk about minimum compliance effort, and Toyota is right there. Toyota is lobbying for government funding of H2 refueling facilities, even when Fuel Cell technology isn't financially viable yet.

    But the real villain is our own government. They themselves are seldom educated in technical fields so they are easy prey for BS-tech artists and statisticians. They don't even know who to hire to find out where reality is. You can't hire a good cook if you don't what good food is.
     
  14. Bangor Bob

    Bangor Bob Member

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    Ugh. There certainly are a lot of those around. Especially "on the internet."


    In general, there's no need to attribute the automaker's unwillingness to go electric to conspiracy or malice - it's just the inertia of very mature, risk-averse multi-billion dollar companies. They have huge investments, experience and expertise in ICE's. Making the mental leap to realize your multi-billion dollar engine and transmission plants are misallocated capital is HARD. Walking away from something you've dedicated your life to is scary.
     
  15. GKwey

    GKwey Member

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    I wonder will there be the day that Musk regrets he ever offered open access to Tesla's patents?
     
  16. CHG-ON

    CHG-ON Still in love after all these miles

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    I think these industries, auto and oil, especially, are stuck in their model and refuse to give it up. The world changes every day and they will have no part of it. History has proven, as has been well said here in previous responses to this thread, that sticking your head in the sand simply does not work. My fear is that these old white men clubs have so much power, both politically and financially, that they could snuff out Tesla and the cause. I know they are all trying to do that. We see it every day in the press. These companies have the Gov't and the media firmly planted in the palms of their obscenely rich hands. Look at how powerfully they have ruled us since the early 1900's when Standard Oil, GM and Firestone got together and wiped out mass transportation in many parts of the country, especially CA, by buying up all the trolleys and pulling up the tracks and everything. They have forced us into addiction as evilly as the drug cartels have. And they have had a profoundly larger impact than even those devils: many, many more deaths through pollution and accidents at the very least. They have also impoverished many of us though the allure of the sexiest cars and absurdly high energy prices. How many of us have felt the pinch at the pump or trying to pay our home heating bills?

    My hope is that Tesla can muster the fortitude and support from people like us to shatter old the guard glass glass empires and bring a new order to transportation. We are at the tipping point of not having to rely on fossil fuels for transportation. We have a long way to go. But the tech is now there to do it on a moderate scale. It can grow exponentially if we invest in it as a nation and as individuals.

    The way that WE can help Tesla is to not only evangelize their mission, but to invest in the technology that enables them to continue to move forward. If we, as a segment of our populace, move our wealth, no matter how modest each or ours may be, into new energy and away from old energy, we will begin to see a shift. If we do not, we will not see the change that so many of of here on this forum want to see.

    Buying the car is important. But we, as owners and believers, need to do much, much more to support this mission.

    For transparency, I have a small amount of Tesla stock and no other new energy stocks as of yet. I am currently in the process of moving into solar, lithium and others. And I am of moderate means.

    This topic means a lot to me, as you might imagine from my ramblings. WE need to do something!
     
  17. eisbock

    eisbock Member

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    tbh this is a pretty terrible analogy.

    The average consumer could just not buy his daily $3 cup of coffee for a month or pass on a few company happy hours to save for a doubly expensive phone.

    It is far less practical and often times not even feasible to save for a doubly expensive car.
     
  18. jeff_adams

    jeff_adams Member

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    A 35k car is doubly expensive from what?
     
  19. S3XY

    S3XY Member

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    Anyone who engages in hyperbole is just as bad as Hitler! Sorry, I couldn't resist.
     

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