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Consumer Reports Model 3 reliability rating: reliable?

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And yet when the first S came out, CR couldn't have said better. Best car ever etc.
And everyone agreed.
But as soon as CR says the opposite, CR are criticized?

Yep.
That about sums up the intellectual depth of a few more vocal forum posters. :oops:

CR is a well established, independent test organization.
They don't take money from anyone, and their data is based on the actual members surveys, and first-hand testing. Their reporting is totally unbiased, but geared towards the middle-America tastes and needs, which may, or may not, reflect yours.

Personally, I've never followed their recommendations for complex products, like cars. Virtually every car I ever bought CR either did not like or did not recommend for excessive complexity, too harsh for a ride, or wastefully exuberant performance. Model 3P fits right in! :D

On the other hand, I had always found their reliability reports to be closely correlated to reality with all the cars I, or my friends, owned. Including Tesla. I am just willing to take a little less reliability and refinement for fun and driving engagement.

For other stuff around the house - fridges, dryers, mowers, grills - CR's feedback is just about perfect.

It is true that Tesla vehicles have quality control and software issues, and that service infrastructure is lacking in quantity and quality.
I also find it to be true that Model 3 is an extremely attractive value proposition, and a fun EV to own.

Go test drive on, and make up your own mind!

YMMV,
a
 
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I think there’s a disconnect between expectations.

In Dallas, none of the car dealerships I ever “dealt” with made me wait 1 week for an appointment in the past 20 years. It’s always been within 24 hours. Mazda, VW, Audi, BMW and Porsche.

The dealership experience can also be different depending on who owns it and the location. For instance, when I lived in Bay Area, all nearby Ford dealerships were always booked two weeks in advance and didn’t have loaners or courtesy shuttles. They would refer you to the nearest Enterprise and rent you the car for money. Here, in SoCal, the experience was much better, and no issues booking service appointments next day. I had pretty good experience with Mazda in both locations though.

So far I had only one service appointment with Tesla to fix door alignment issue. Mobile tech was available within 3 days, he arrived on time, made the assessment and booked me with the nearest Service Center for the same afternoon. I drove there, got a nice Model S loaner and both door and a minor dash rattle were fixed within an hour or so. I basically just had enough time to drive home, have lunch and then I got the text and drove back. Very positive experience.

I’m going to book another appointment at some point to look at the gaps in roof glass seal that I forgot about and there is another rattle coming from the passenger side (probably also the dash?). Let’s see how that one goes.

Hard to say about reliability, they are constantly improving (and do it very fast), so past experience may not be applicable to the cars they build today. I have a feeling that after you fix a few initial gremlins, it would be a pretty reliable car, but the time will tell.
 
. They undeniably do, however, have reliability problems. Look at all the complaints on this forum about cars delivered with bad paint jobs, uneven panel gaps, broken USB ports, chargers that work at half speed, etc. Even ignoring CR's reliability ratings, Tesla has a reputation for substandard build quality. Those also happen to be the problem areas that show up as worst in CR's reliability ratings, at least for the Model 3.

I see this technique used repeatedly. Complaints to a forum are not indicative of overall quality and should not be used as a measure of such. Forums exist in large part to resolve complaints. Every automobile forum is the same. I formerly owned a BMW 3-series and a Smart Car. Their owners' forums are filled with posts from people seeking answers to problems.
 
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CR is a well established, independent test organization.
They don't take money from anyone, and their data is based on the actual members surveys, and first-hand testing. Their reporting is totally unbiased, but geared towards the middle-America tastes and needs, which may, or may not, reflect yours.

Actually what they don't take is advertising, but if you look at their list of who keeps them in business (donates money) then you'll see where they might have some biases.

They undeniably do, however, have reliability problems. Look at all the complaints on this forum about cars delivered with bad paint jobs, uneven panel gaps, broken USB ports, chargers that work at half speed, etc.

Those are indeed problems, but they have nothing to do with "reliability". Reliability means (generally) how often is the car not going to work when I need it. Will I be left having to call a cab? Will it break down and leave me at the side of the road? It can also include how often it will leave me uncomfortable, perhaps by the heater not working, or the music refusing to play right.

Sure, Teslas have lots of little problems. But they fix them fast, sometimes with a software update, meaning the owner has to do pretty much nothing at all. And they even fix some hardware issues with mobile service, again leaving the owner having to do nothing at all. Yet CR has no way to rate "how many problems your car had that didn't get quickly fixed and left you dissatisfied". Plus they have no way to rate things that are specific to EVs, for instance how much easier the car is to fuel.

In the end, CR is left with a scale where the cars that people love most, that they find a joy to just get in and drive, that are unquestionably the best they've ever owned, these cars are "unreliable". Yes, their measures are stupid. No, you shouldn't ever use them to figure out whether to buy an EV or which EV to buy.

And no, Teslas are not perfect by a long shot. And neither is Tesla service. They are just, as an aggregate, way better than the competition.
 
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Because mine has been 100% reliable and my customer experience was good, I'm just a blind fanboy, right?

No, but it makes you one data point. CR's reliability ratings are based on hundreds of data points per car. (They require a certain number of responses before they add a model to their reliability ratings. I don't recall the exact number, but I think it's somewhere around 200.)

And "ethical principles"? They offered a car for sale, I gave them my money, they gave me a car. Not really sure how that's unethical?

Tesla has been roundly criticized for a number of business practices that can be considered lapses of ethics, ranging from poor customer service to poor treatment of employees. Whether you believe such accusations and whether they're important to you are for you to decide, but discussing them is perfectly reasonable. CR does not currently try to factor such things into their ratings. (They did when they were first founded many decades ago.)

I grew up trusting Consumer Reports, so I have a hard time just throwing them under the bus. I do feel like they are in a tough place though. They have spent quite a bit of time developing more quantitative ways of measuring things like reliability. In a last millennium/ICE world, every time that the car needs an update of any sort, that is a negative statement about its reliability. It is essentially a recall. In the world over the air software updates, more software updates means more new features are added to your car overnight. A much more positive thing.

Those are fair points, and ones that CR has addressed in articles, although AFAIK their numerical ratings don't yet give any sort of advantage to cars with OTA updates. A problem that's fixed by an OTA update would likely not qualify for being reported as a reliability problem in their survey, though, since the survey's wording is something like (from memory, and so imprecise) "a problem that's serious because of downtime, cost, or safety." Since problems fixed by OTA updates are fixed for free and involve no downtime (unless they're very serious bugs), owners probably should not report them. They could be safety problems (like the dog mode bug that was recently reported), though. Of course, what owners actually report as problems is another matter, and that's a weakness of survey research.

Similarly, does one give extra credit to electric vehicles because you never have to bring them in for an oil change, where every ICE vehicle has to do that and often gets extra service at the same time? The overhead of those visits isn’t really considered because it is required of all ICE vehicles.

That's a fair point, and again, it's one that, AFAIK, CR does not currently incorporate in their numeric ratings. They do update their numeric formulas from time to time, and perhaps they'll do so for this factor. You can always write to them with questions and suggestions.

I see this technique used repeatedly. Complaints to a forum are not indicative of overall quality and should not be used as a measure of such. Forums exist in large part to resolve complaints. Every automobile forum is the same. I formerly owned a BMW 3-series and a Smart Car. Their owners' forums are filled with posts from people seeking answers to problems.

It's true that you can't judge reliability by forum complaints; but my point was that Tesla's reputation for build-quality problems does not come exclusively from CR. You see it wherever cars are discussed, often in side-to-side comparisons of Teslas vs. (fill-in-the-blank automaker). When just about every discussion, whether informal or based on survey data, points in the same direction, it's hard to convincingly argue that the truth lies in the other direction.

Actually what they don't take is advertising, but if you look at their list of who keeps them in business (donates money) then you'll see where they might have some biases.

CR's donors list is here. Offhand, I don't see anything there that indicates any cause for concern about anti-Tesla or anti-EV bias, although I certainly haven't researched the many individual donors to see who might own Ford stock or work for Exxon/Mobile. (The Ford Foundation is a major donor, but despite its historical links to Henry Ford, the modern foundation appears to have no significant links to the automaker.)

They undeniably do, however, have reliability problems. Look at all the complaints on this forum about cars delivered with bad paint jobs, uneven panel gaps, broken USB ports, chargers that work at half speed, etc.
Those are indeed problems, but they have nothing to do with "reliability". Reliability means (generally) how often is the car not going to work when I need it. Will I be left having to call a cab? Will it break down and leave me at the side of the road? It can also include how often it will leave me uncomfortable, perhaps by the heater not working, or the music refusing to play right.

CR's definition of reliability does include fit-and-finish issues as well as major-breakdown issues. I suspect the reason is that, whether a car's wheels fall off or the USB port stops working, it's a hassle to get it fixed. Getting such problems fixed is likely to disrupt your life, perhaps including such factors as taking time off work, arranging for alternative transportation, etc. My previous car (a Chevy Volt) was in the shop for about eight or ten days over the course of the 2.5 years I leased it, even aside from routine maintenance, and that was a significant problem for me. As I noted in an earlier post, CR does weight the leave-you-stranded-at-the-side-of-the-road problems more heavily than the minor-hassle problems, so they are not insensitive to your point of view; but I agree with CR's definition -- anything that requires an extra trip to the shop, beyond routine maintenance, is a reliability problem, albeit down-weighted compared to more serious problems.

Another point, which echoes some of what @cassiopeia wrote, is that Tesla is the only automaker, AFAIK, that offers mobile service. This can reduce the hassle factor of some types of repairs and service. AFAIK, CR does not explicitly factor this into their reliability ratings; however, as those ratings are based on respondents' judgment of what is a serious problem and what is not, it's possible that Tesla is getting a boost in their reliability scores because respondents might be considering problems less serious because they don't need to take their cars anywhere to have them repaired.

So, my overall point is this: CR's ratings are not perfect, but I don't see evidence of actual bias. As with any review, you should read CR's report on the car with the understanding that your needs and preferences may not exactly match those of the reviewer, and treat the review appropriately.
 
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I think there’s a disconnect between expectations.

In Dallas, none of the car dealerships I ever “dealt” with made me wait 1 week for an appointment in the past 20 years. It’s always been within 24 hours. Mazda, VW, Audi, BMW and Porsche.

So I can see that people who are used to 24 hour appointments get upset if it takes 7 days instead just for Tesla to look at the car.

I personally haven’t had a problem with my P3 (it’s great) so I don’t know how responsive the Dallas service center is for repair requests.

I should clarify that I had originally made an appointment sooner with the service center but when the service center asked me if I would prefer a mobile service appointment instead and I said "yes", they rescheduled my appointment to a week later.

But I get your point. Obviously, if people are accustomed to just going to their local Mazda dealership for a repair, they might be irked that Tesla sets up an appointment for a week later. Personally, I really liked that I could make an appointment via my phone app, that Tesla could remotely diagnose my car and offer a mobile service appointment, and that a mobile tech could show up to my house and do the repair in just 30 minutes. I found the overall experience far superior to a traditional dealership. Does Mazda, BMW, or Audi send a mobile tech to your house and replace the rear tail light in 30 minutes at no cost? I doubt it.
 
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So, my overall point is this: CR's ratings are not perfect, but I don't see evidence of actual bias.
Oh, I don't think they are particularly biased. Most of their errors are due to cluelessness, stupidity, and methodological intransigence. When you generate a score that makes it seem that a car that is the most loved by customers is not acceptable, then you have to start questioning your scoring mechanism.

As one example, I remember being very pleased when my P85 was getting its sunroof fixed. It took several days. Meanwhile, I was in a loaner that was nicer than my car, I was putting miles on their vehicle, and they were taking the time to fix it right. All at no cost to me. Yet in CR's book that would have been a strike against owning a Tesla. But I couldn't have been happier. It was actually better than if there had never been a problem.

And how do they quantize the delicious fact that I never have to interact with a dealer and I never need go to a gas station? CR acts as though these things are irrelevant when in fact they are a source of pleasure and relief to Tesla's customers.

So yeah, more stupid than biased. But they've always been kind of stupid about high tech gadgets. Nothing new.
 
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Tesla has been roundly criticized for a number of business practices that can be considered lapses of ethics, ranging from poor customer service to poor treatment of employees. Whether you believe such accusations and whether they're important to you are for you to decide, but discussing them is perfectly reasonable.
Pretty much all lies. Reasonable to discuss only if there is evidence of wrongdoing or ethical lapses. Not "people are saying" BS.
 
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I should clarify that I had originally made an appointment sooner with the service center but when the service center asked me if I would prefer a mobile service appointment instead and I said "yes", they rescheduled my appointment to a week later.

But I get your point. Obviously, if people are accustomed to just going to their local Mazda dealership for a repair, they might be irked that Tesla sets up an appointment for a week later. Personally, I really liked that I could make an appointment via my phone app, that Tesla could remotely diagnose my car and offer a mobile service appointment, and that a mobile tech could show up to my house and do the repair in just 30 minutes. I found the overall experience far superior to a traditional dealership. Does Mazda, BMW, or Audi send a mobile tech to your house and replace the rear tail light in 30 minutes at no cost? I doubt it.


Yeah, I like Tesla’s concept too. Haven’t experienced it (yet). I think the idea is awesome.

My last service experience was with my i3 that suddenly stopped working when I got back into the car at a 7-11. Dead 12V battery. One call to roadside assistance and it was towed to the next BMW dealership. The service advisor called me regularly with updates (I didn’t have to ask). I declined a loaner (I also have the P3, a Z4 and a Macan). The service department had all the typical premium brand perks. Don’t know what Tesla has (it’s not really important to me) but I guess some people who buy a Model 3 instead of a BMW 3 or an S instead of a 7 wouldn’t like if Tesla is only communicating via App and offering Uber credits instead of a loaner?
 
The specific criticism of CR isn’t their reliability ratings per sp — it is that the reliability ratings are so different from their overall customer satisfaction ratings. The weightings for their reliability methodology are odd if they result in cars that absolutely win their for customer satisfaction, get such horrible reliability ratings. If the reliability was really that bad it ought to show up in customer satisfaction. But it doesn’t.

And more importantly, watch their recent video on using NOA — and then watch the video debunking the CR video. The CR people are obviously a combination of part clueless, and part biased against Tesla. The video shows them acting so stupid and clueless that their must either really be that stupid and clueless, or they acting that way for the camera.


Yep.
That about sums up the intellectual depth of a few more vocal forum posters. :oops:

CR is a well established, independent test organization.
They don't take money from anyone, and their data is based on the actual members surveys, and first-hand testing. Their reporting is totally unbiased, but geared towards the middle-America tastes and needs, which may, or may not, reflect yours.

Personally, I've never followed their recommendations for complex products, like cars. Virtually every car I ever bought CR either did not like or did not recommend for excessive complexity, too harsh for a ride, or wastefully exuberant performance. Model 3P fits right in! :D

On the other hand, I had always found their reliability reports to be closely correlated to reality with all the cars I, or my friends, owned. Including Tesla. I am just willing to take a little less reliability and refinement for fun and driving engagement.

For other stuff around the house - fridges, dryers, mowers, grills - CR's feedback is just about perfect.

It is true that Tesla vehicles have quality control and software issues, and that service infrastructure is lacking in quantity and quality.
I also find it to be true that Model 3 is an extremely attractive value proposition, and a fun EV to own.

Go test drive on, and make up your own mind!

YMMV,
a
 
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And more importantly, watch their recent video on using NOA — and then watch the video debunking the CR video. The CR people are obviously a combination of part clueless, and part biased against Tesla. The video shows them acting so stupid and clueless that their must either really be that stupid and clueless, or they acting that way for the camera.

They are definitely biased against Tesla. They don't appear to know much about car and tech stuff either. Toasters perhaps but definitely not cars and computers.
 
As a CR subscriber, what I find most perplexing about their overall evaluation of the Model 3 is that the chart that represents the problem areas seems to have zero connection to the commentary about them.

13 out of 17 areas are shown as "much better than average", with 2 (paint/trim and in-car electronics) "better than average" and 1 (body hardware) "average".

How all of that adds up to an overall 2 out 5 rating for reliability is a complete mystery.
 
Because Tesla fans can't think rationally about the brand. They see the cars as a magical lifestyle product, where normal financial, reliability and customer service considerations don't apply (no to mentioned ethical principles, like constantly misleading customers). You only need to read the responses to your thread to see this.

Buying a Tesla is like accepting Jesus into your heart and after that moment your life is transformed so fundamentally that you'll be begging the company to take more of your money.
This is total BS. I have three friends with new Model 3s. One had a slightly off-center steering wheel which was fixed under warranty with an alignment. The others were perfect. They are now Tesla fans because the vehicle is far superior to anything else they have ever driven. There is no question customer service needs improving, but this doesn’t change the fact Tesla’s are far superior than any of the competition.
 
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