"Consumer Reports" reports Bugs

[sukhi]

I will stick to my opinion that if we want Tesla to be a huge success then we need to be objective and show tough love. We cannot fault The Consumer Reports for reflecting the sentiments of many early model X owners. We can see a lot of these issues reported here in the forums. Using anecdotes does not weaken the article, it is a style of journalism. That's how broader stories are told. Neither would I fault consumer reports for writing this report, I think it is useful information for new buyers in the market. As the reports indicate, it is not just model x even model S continues to suffer from build quality issues even in areas that are industry standards now. None of this takes away from the groundbreaking innovations that Tesla is trying to bring to market. That's why many of us are willing to accept the early adopter pain but realize this that as owners we want Tesla to be around for this decade and many more decades to come.

We want Tesla to be a game changing success story of the century but if we continue to be the apologists Tesla for their shoddy production quality, poor operations and less than efficient internal communications, we are doing a disservice to our investment but more importantly to the success of the company. I fail to see how the technological innovations related to the FWDs can be excuse for the subpar trim issues or a paint job that sometimes seem to be done by an elementary school kid.

There is objective evidence out there that Tesla's initial build quality continues to be poor. Our emotional and fiscal investments in the company need to go beyond the car we bought and the pride terror but rather we need to ensure that we hold the company to the standards of quality and customer service that will help it be successful beyond the early adopters. Fanboys never have been or will be the foundation of any company's lasting success.

I am personally a Tesla fan as a Tesla owner as well as an investor. I want my investments to be a success and in that context will continue to hold the company to a standard higher than that expected of a mainstream car manufacturer in the innovation sphere and equal to if not better than the average in the area of initial build quality in the areas that are table steaks for pretty much any luxury car manufacturer.

 

[K-MTG]

I will stick to my opinion that if we want Tesla to be a huge success then we need to be objective and show tough love. We cannot fault The Consumer Reports for reflecting the sentiments of many early model X owners. We can see a lot of these issues reported here in the forums. Using anecdotes does not weaken the article, it is a style of journalism. That's how broader stories are told. Neither would I fault consumer reports for writing this report, I think it is useful information for new buyers in the market. As the reports indicate, it is not just model x even model S continues to suffer from build quality issues even in areas that are industry standards now. None of this takes away from the groundbreaking innovations that Tesla is trying to bring to market. That's why many of us are willing to accept the early adopter pain but realize this that as owners we want Tesla to be around for this decade and many more decades to come.

We want Tesla to be a game changing success story of the century but if we continue to make apologies for shoddy production quality, poor operations and less than efficient internal communications, we are doing a disservice to our investment but more importantly to the success of the company. There is objective evidence out there that Tesla's initial build quality continues to be poor. Our emotional and fiscal investments in the company need to go beyond the car we bought and the pride terror but rather we need to ensure that we hold the company to the standards of quality and customer service that will help it be successful beyond the early adopters. Fanboys never have been or will be the foundation of any company's lasting success.

I am personally a Tesla fan as a Tesla owner as well as an investor. I want my investments to be a success and in that context will continue to hold the company to a standard higher than that expected of a mainstream car manufacturer in the innovation sphere and equal to if not better than the average in the area of initial build quality in the areas that are table steaks for pretty much any luxury car manufacturer.

I agree, I would rather have Tesla deliver a car with less "bells and whistles" if it had no reliability issues. Ultimately, I want my X to be trouble free and delivered as promised. Is that too much to ask? (Would appreciate a sunshade as well)

 

[cwerdna]

I agree, I would rather have Tesla deliver a car with less "bells and whistles" if it had no reliability issues. Ultimately, I want my X to be trouble free and delivered as promised. Is that too much to ask?

Nope. Not too much to ask.

Even if the cars arrive seemingly problem free, many folks have run into problems w/both sets of doors soon thereafter, not including cases where it doesn't detect obstructions properly. One has to wonder what sort of durability and reliability tests Tesla runs in general, esp. on the doors. I made a comment at automotive reliability and durability testing and in another thread about this, yet that thread has been pretty much crickets.

Wonder if any Model X was ever able to pass 84,000 cycles of each door and if Tesla even went anywhere close to that far. If yes, can they take a random samples off the line and have almost all of them pass?

It'll be real interesting once we have a whole bunch of Model X enter freezing, snowy and icy weather coupled w/gusty winds later this year.

 

[engle]

Today there was a 2.5% drop in the stock on day the market was up.

This equates to about $1B in value lost due to the article citing some people on the forums. The article was reposted broadly across bloomberg and other financial sites.

Almost sounds like somebody at CR is day-trading TSLA off their articles like this!!

I just read it. It clearly doesn't present a balanced, objective viewpoint at all. First, the author highlights one owner's issues. Then, he writes:

"Tesla message boards are already swelling with complaints from Model X owners regarding balky doors, interior trim-piece tolerances, paint-spray quality, malfunctioning second-row seats, sheet-metal panel gaps, and climate control issues. The Model X is still very early in production, with only a few thousand vehicles produced to date."

Had the author, Mark Rechtin, done his research, he would know that 2,700 MX were produced before the 3rd row seat latch recall, and now they are being produced at a rate of at least 750/week. So that's obviously more than "a few thousand". Secondly, he should have quantified the number of Model X owners that reported vehicle issues in the forums by counting them. Those of us that have had zero or minimal issues don't "swell the Tesla message boards" with our non-complaints!! Then he could have reported a "true picture" instead of blowing it all up out of proportion.

It's obvious this "journalist" writes in an exaggerated style, calling the FWD's, "wildly designed". His signature box gives it away:

Mark Rechtin

I have chronicled the doings of the automotive industry for 25 years—from top-secret design studios, to spark-spraying assembly lines, to the hot box of the dealership floor. I've driven thousands of cars and motorcycles at felony velocities, and pried facts from scores of reluctant executives. Follow me on Twitter. (@markrechtin)"

I sense bias here. Just because a publication doesn't accept advertising doesn't mean some of their writers don't have personal bias. BTW, I'm a CR online subscriber.

More nonsense:

"However, as the units in operation continue to multiply, the question arises of whether Tesla can keep up with the service issues—especially when the Model 3 compact sedan starts production en masse in late 2017."

Note the MX issues enumerated earlier were: "... complaints from Model X owners regarding balky doors, interior trim-piece tolerances, paint-spray quality, malfunctioning second-row seats, sheet-metal panel gaps, and climate control issues." The Model 3 will not have those Falcon Wing Doors, the base model will not have a self-presenting driver's door nor a self-opening and closing front passenger's door, will not have the X's second-row seats since no 3rd row to access, and the climate control will be much simpler without a 3rd row. The base Model 3 probably won't have a separate ventilation system for the back seats, either. Therefore, Rechtin's entire point is moot. Besides, if he did his homework, he would have known that Tesla and SpaceX employee's were allowed to reserve Model 3's before everyone else, and Tesla has already stated that initial production will go to those buyers near the factory to help stamp out early issues faster to ramp smoother.

I think I'll email a letter to the editor of CR about this article.

 

[Spidy]

So that's obviously more than "a few thousand".

So for you 1000 and 2000 is a few thousand, but 3000-4000 are not?

 

[engle]

So for you 1000 and 2000 is a few thousand, but 3000-4000 are not?

Yes, my understanding is "a few" means 2, and 3,000-4,000 starts the "several" category. In any event, the writer should have been more specific. Note definition #2 from googling: "define: few"

"
2.
used to emphasize how small a number of people or things is.
"he had few friends"
"

 

[GSP]

So you consider 3-4 more than a few? Someone with only 3-4 friends is not considered to have a small number of friends?

I think the CR report was fair and reasonable. CR's responsibility is to their readers, and their mission is to help make them informed consumers. They are just doing their job, as Tesla also is by fixing the customer cars and improving build quality. It is hard work, and requires constant vigilance.

GSP

 

[wdolson]

Consumer reports have been acting suspiciously. I recall that it made overreaching comments while it withdrew P85D recommendation. It's a car reviewer but made comments like stock analyst questioning Tesla's capability to deliver Model 3. They have repeated that again. It seems like they are grasping at any chance to stay in limelight by talking about Tesla. They could have at least waited till they reviewed the car themselves. If they are going to repeat this behavior, they will loose credibility just like many media outlets have in the matters regarding Tesla.
Also, this a lesson for Tesla and Elon. They should not give media outlets too much importance. Elon used Consumer reports ratings to praise the car and now Tesla is paying for it. Tesla is an innovative company, it will continuously cause alienation of people as their appetite for innovation is hit. Hence, Tesla shouldn't give importance to opinion's-good or bad.

Actually if you pay attention to CR's criteria, they have been quite consistent. For a car to be recommended, it needs to score above a certain level on their tests as well as score above a certain level on the reliability ratings. The first is not a test of reliability, but a program to test the ease of use, performance, and whether the car does the things the company claims. The Model S did exceptionally well in the first measure, but not as well in the second.

They make a very concerted effort to be fair across the board, but using a measure that was developed for ICE showed some problems with an EV. The Model Ss they tested scored so high because with an EV you can have your cake and eat it too. You get great economy, high torque, and great overall performance. Those are always trade offs in ICEs.

In the reliability scores, different problems are scored at different levels of severity. Replacing the motor in an ICE is only done as a last resort, but on a Model S it's about as tough as replacing a spark plug on an ICE and Tesla frequently chose to swap out drive units instead of trying to troubleshoot and fix a motor problem while still on the car.

The Model S on their system which is the same for all cars probably was a bit harsh on the Model S. However, almost all of their data was on owner reports from 2012 to about mid-2014 when the teething problems were at their worst. By anecdotal reports I've seen here, it sounds like the Model S has been more reliable since 2014 and especially in 2015. Elon has claimed the 2015s are having many fewer service center visits. This should show up in the next Consumer Reports reliability study which will be out later this year.

The Model X has the same frame, battery, and motors as the Model S, so those systems should be as reliable. However, everything above the skateboard is pretty much new. The front windshield is one of the most difficult to fabricate windshields ever put on a car. The mechanism that controls the center seats is one of the most complex seat mechanisms ever made, and the falcon wing doors are fantastically complex. Additionally the self presenting doors are new, the HEPA filter is new, and probably a number of things I am forgetting. On top of all that, Tesla people have said the Model X is one of the most difficult cars to build in the world.

It's practically a law of engineering that any time you release something new, there will be bugs. Unless you want to test forever and never release, as soon as the public gets their hands on it, there will be problems. With a complex manufacturing process, there will be mistakes made, with complex mechanisms a certain percentage are going to fail and you won't find out until you have enough out there to be statistically significant. And finally no matter how much effort you put into making something foolproof, some new breed of fool comes along and makes you the fool.

This last one personally drives me nuts. I put a lot of effort to design my systems for ease of use and reliability, but as soon as someone else gets their hands on it, they do something with it I didn't think of and it all goes pear shaped.

I predicted from the start that the Model X was going to have teething problems. If you want the most reliable car out there, choose a brand known for quality like Toyota and buy the oldest design in their lineup. If you want the latest thing out there, expect bugs. You can't have both.

The Model S happens to fit my needs better than any other car I've looked at, from any car maker, but even if I wanted a Model X or 3, I'd still be leaning towards a Model S because it's debugged and is going to have the fewest problems. I don't demand perfect reliability (though I have had outstanding luck with my cars over the years, I'm currently driving a 24 year old Buick I bought new, good carma), I do want more reliability than most early adopters are willing to put up with.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

About Tesla | Tesla Motors says they were founded in 2003.


GM's never been known for good consistent reliability across most/all of their product line, despite them being amongst the oldest automakers.

NOW you tell me!

 

[ankitmishra]

About Tesla | Tesla Motors says they were founded in 2003.


GM's never been known for good consistent reliability across most/all of their product line, despite them being amongst the oldest automakers.

Tesla is a company that ignited the electric car revolution. It made its 1st car in 2008. Model S was launched and delivered in around 2012. Hence, counting time from its inception on paper won't do us any good. It isn't a normal company in a normal field. It's a pioneer in car industry that sees no start ups and is very difficult to survive in. It fought against the well established image of car as an ICE. It built it's product from ground up. Also, Elon only became CEO in 2008. IMHO, it's still a start up.

 

[mkaresh]

They are doing this for the publicity. They are supposed to shut*** until they test a car by themselves , or complete an official survey status on a high volume of customers.

I understand crapy news site do it, but Consumer Report should avoid early comments like this. Thinking about cancelling my subscription

Many people, even some seasoned journalists, are reading the CR release as based on data they've collected, when as you note it's based on reading forums.

I operate a car reliability survey (at truedelta.com) in which quite a few members of this forum participate (for the Model S). I've been well aware of the discussion on these forums.

But I also know that forums tend to make problems seem more common than they actually are. While forum discussions are a great way to get details about the problems people are experiencing, they aren't as good for measuring how common these problems actually are. For the latter you really need a more structured process.

 

[McRat]

...

GM's never been known for good consistent reliability across most/all of their product line, despite them being amongst the oldest automakers.

Which GM car or truck that is under 10 years old is giving you the most problems?

Even our >10 year ones are fine. Even our 5 "first year" models were flawless.

I have no clue why people think brand new cars of any brand are unreliable. That is not the norm today, that was a 1970'-2000 issue. The biggest surprise is that it wasn't just American cars that were built like crap a generation ago.

Companies today operate under what is referred to as Total Quality Management, ISO 9001:2008 is just one example. You measure quality levels and customer complaints/reworks, come up with corrective actions and preventative actions, then evaluate their effectiveness, and the cycle keeps looping. Your products always get better, not worse when you manufacture this way. Even new product initial quality goes up because the quality system itself improves in a closed loop.

It's why your heart valve is not defective, and your airplane doesn't collapse on take-off. And why a KIA is every bit as good or better than a BMW.

 

[vandacca]

I always laugh when I hear people say that the Model-X is the most complex vehicle ever built. It's not the most complex vehicle ever built by a long shot. In fact, I would argue that Tesla EVs are the most simple vehicles on the road, and that is exactly why I want to own a Tesla.

An ICE has a very complex motor (much more complex than Tesla's drive unit) with hundreds of moving parts that have to work in perfect synchronicity. Then there are multiple lines of coolants and lubricants that zig-zag through-out the vehicle. The motor not only moves the wheels, but it also drives other alternators and systems. Then there is the whole exhaust system. Can't imagine anything more complicated that an ICE vehicle.

I think what Elon is trying to say is that while ICE vehicles are extremely complex, they have had many decades of evolution, testing, debugging to get everything working relatively well together, Tesla's vehicles are built new from the ground up and haven't yet had all those years to develop a polished product. There are dozens of new systems that may work flawlessly in unit test, but they haven't undergone decades of system testing as a whole package. Then there is the software, which has it's own set of issues.

But the fact remains that a Tesla is a much more simple product than any ICE vehicle. And that's why I want one.

 

[mkaresh]

The Model S on their system which is the same for all cars probably was a bit harsh on the Model S. However, almost all of their data was on owner reports from 2012 to about mid-2014 when the teething problems were at their worst. By anecdotal reports I've seen here, it sounds like the Model S has been more reliable since 2014 and especially in 2015. Elon has claimed the 2015s are having many fewer service center visits. This should show up in the next Consumer Reports reliability study which will be out later this year.

This is not correct. Consumer Reports reported the worst reliability score for the 2015. It gets a full black dot while the 2014s still get an "about average" and the 2013s get a half-black dot. The 2012s also have a full black dot, but there are very few 2012s.

This is due to a fundamental flaw in their survey, as it asks owners to report "only problems you considered serious." It's an overly subjective question that ends up conflating satisfaction with the car and satisfaction with dealer service with reliability, such that you can't tell what is actually being measured.

Early adopters of the Model S were very forgiving of the car, understanding that it was an all-new car from a new company, and so were much less likely to consider any given problem as serious.

With the 2015s, owners are less forgiving, so the car gets a worse score from CR even though it actually requires repairs considerably less often than the 2013s did two years earlier.

I started my own survey largely because of this flaw in CR's survey, which they've refused to address. TrueDelta's survey asks owners to report all repairs, minor as well as major. Even with much smaller sample sizes than CR often has this yields more accurate results.

 

[sukhi]

Another article, this time from Fortune!

Why This Tesla Model X Owner Can No Longer Use It

 

[jomo25]

Which GM car or truck that is under 10 years old is giving you the most problems?

Even our >10 year ones are fine. Even our 5 "first year" models were flawless.

Had a 2012 Volt. Loved it for the most part. Had it for 3 years of a lease. The first year, it was in the shop no less than 6 times.

 

[wdolson]

This is not correct. Consumer Reports reported the worst reliability score for the 2015. It gets a full black dot while the 2014s still get an "about average" and the 2013s get a half-black dot. The 2012s also have a full black dot, but there are very few 2012s.

This is due to a fundamental flaw in their survey, as it asks owners to report "only problems you considered serious." It's an overly subjective question that ends up conflating satisfaction with the car and satisfaction with dealer service with reliability, such that you can't tell what is actually being measured.

Early adopters of the Model S were very forgiving of the car, understanding that it was an all-new car from a new company, and so were much less likely to consider any given problem as serious.

With the 2015s, owners are less forgiving, so the car gets a worse score from CR even though it actually requires repairs considerably less often than the 2013s did two years earlier.

I started my own survey largely because of this flaw in CR's survey, which they've refused to address. TrueDelta's survey asks owners to report all repairs, minor as well as major. Even with much smaller sample sizes than CR often has this yields more accurate results.

Good points. I notice TrueDelta still ranks the 2015 Model S low. Any survey they relies on people volunteering information is going to be skewed negatively because the people who have few problems don't report them as often as people who have a lot of problems. The only true measure would be to get data from every car maker, but nobody is willing to release that information to the public.

 

[sukhi]

Good points. I notice TrueDelta still ranks the 2015 Model S low. Any survey they relies on people volunteering information is going to be skewed negatively because the people who have few problems don't report them as often as people who have a lot of problems. The only true measure would be to get data from every car maker, but nobody is willing to release that information to the public.

That might be the case but any statistical biases in the methodologies used are the same for all the brands. So the reports accurately reflect the quality ratings on a relative scale.

 

[Drivin]

Yes, my understanding is "a few" means 2, and 3,000-4,000 starts the "several" category. In any event, the writer should have been more specific. Note definition #2 from googling: "define: few"

"
2.
used to emphasize how small a number of people or things is.
"he had few friends"
"

No, a couple thousand is two.
As in a married couple.
(not including states in which more than 2 people are in a relationship)

Hierarchy is : one, couple, few, several, handful (as in 5)

 

[Drivin]

I always laugh when I hear people say that the Model-X is the most complex vehicle ever built. It's not the most complex vehicle ever built by a long shot. In fact, I would argue that Tesla EVs are the most simple vehicles on the road, and that is exactly why I want to own a Tesla.

.

Wow. That really is a brilliant point!

I never thought of it that way and just accepted the marketing hype and the subsequent excuse for any quality issues.

I regret that I only have one like to give to your post.