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We can beat numbers to death, point fingers everywhere, and carry on each day. The stark truth is that ever since 1919, we have been warned by scientists and people in world health that a pandemic would happen, and it would sweep the world. We rocked along for years, and even in the cold war with the threat of nuclear bombs, we never considered seriously stockpiling the basic things needed to expand hospitals and clinics to handle hundreds of thousands of patients. Even the Civil Defense shelters stocked in the 1950' could not have handled the numbers. In short, the world got caught with its pants down. And when this is over, and generations come behind us, they also will ignore what is happening today, and one day face the same crisis.
 
I have 2 medical questions:

Are a certain percentage of people immune in the first place, meaning they would not get infected with COVID-19 even if exposed to it?

Since the human body seems great at eventually producing antibodies naturally, is there in the future a way to automate the same process artificially, and how far away are we from that possibly?
 
I have 2 medical questions:

Are a certain percentage of people immune in the first place, meaning they would not get infected with COVID-19 even if exposed to it?

Since the human body seems great at eventually producing antibodies naturally, is there in the future a way to automate the same process artificially, and how far away are we from that possibly?

First question - extremely unlikely (million to one). This is a novel virus and to the best of anyone's knowledge has never been seen by humanity (and we've been looking and sequencing viruses since the 70s).

Second question - yes, it's called a vaccine. We are 6-18 months from that (6 is if the stars align, realistically is more like 12-18).
 
We can beat numbers to death, point fingers everywhere, and carry on each day. The stark truth is that ever since 1919, we have been warned by scientists and people in world health that a pandemic would happen, and it would sweep the world. We rocked along for years, and even in the cold war with the threat of nuclear bombs, we never considered seriously stockpiling the basic things needed to expand hospitals and clinics to handle hundreds of thousands of patients. Even the Civil Defense shelters stocked in the 1950' could not have handled the numbers. In short, the world got caught with its pants down. And when this is over, and generations come behind us, they also will ignore what is happening today, and one day face the same crisis.

That reminds me of the survivalists and their doomsday bunkers. Are they now sitting in these bunkers, eating away at their post-apocalyptic food supply, and thinking "told you so"?
 
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That 80,000 assumes agressive self isolation and hospitals will not exceed capacity and have to let savable patients die because they don't have the ventilators. With COVID-19 the number of people who have life threatening cases and require hospitalization or they will die is much, much higher than any flu outbreak since the 1918 flu.

Look at the hospital situation in many places that are hardest hit. In some places in Italy they have had to let savable patients die because they didn't have the ventilators and other resources. New York City, Atlanta, and New Orleans are on the verge of that point right now with cases growing in every city.

If we do aggressive self isolation, we can keep the death rate down to 80,000 in the next four months. If we don't, there is a study out of the UK that showed if the virus was allowed to run its course. In the UK, they would see 500,000 dead. The US in the same scenario would see 2.2 million dead. We would be done with the virus by mid to late summer because almost everyone left alive will have had it and gotten over it.

Then there are the long term consequences. There is news coming out of China that about 20% of those hospitalized who recover have permanent heart damage. Some percentage (probably fairly high) will have permanent lung damage too. About 68 million Americans are vulnerable to get serious cases. If all of them got it at once, a huge percentage of them would die and most of the rest would be left with permanent, chronic health conditions that will require treatment the rest of their lives.

If you want to see millions die and the economy melt down for a generation, go back to business as usual.

and when you think of 1812 we can’t forget there’s no comparison to the level of medical care that we have now over back then and still how many deaths are anticipated from CV.

Going on 4 WFH weeks as of Monday and being in the higher risk group I can’t help but wonder about getting it despite all this time plus additional weeks that I see in our future once other areas intermingle earlier than they should. Without some vaccine (best 12-18 months away) or some possible antibody treatment can’t say I feel encouraged by what I’m seeing from State and Federal governments. The medical breakthrough will come when they do and not before.

Heck we still have yet to find paper goods in the store when my husband has gone out.
 
First question - extremely unlikely (million to one). This is a novel virus and to the best of anyone's knowledge has never been seen by humanity (and we've been looking and sequencing viruses since the 70s).

So in theory up to 99% could get infected?

Second question - yes, it's called a vaccine. We are 6-18 months from that (6 is if the stars align, realistically is more like 12-18).

I meant a machine that automatically develops vaccine for any virus. (Or many). You provide a virus as input, and a few days later, out comes the vaccine for it. That is what the human body is capable of, right?
 
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I would strongly suggest that we not get hung up on debating or trying to estimate IFR or CFR. None of us in this forum have the data or experience to do this properly. We just wind up arguing about things we can't see.

I have found in my own experience as a statistician that it is very important to stay focused on things you can actually measure and get data for. Latent variables, censored observations and missing data can easily send one down imaginative paths that lead nowhere. What we often find is the we must make many more assumptions than we can test. We ultimately impose our own subjective biases as we select which results are worth sharing with others.

The when we share this with others we can run into conflict. But we wind up arguing not about observable facts, but over all the imaginative stuff we have no data. If we had the data, we wouldn't need to waste much time arguing.

So this is a clue, if you can't resolve an argument with someone, chances are you are not arguing about somethings you can actually quantify or gather good data for, or else someone in the argument is unwilling to yield to the data which is on hand. Past a certain point you are no longer engaged in science. You are probably just wasting time.

Among the tactics of "Merchants of Doubt," propagandists who try to undermine science, is the tactic the red herring. Get people to debate non-essential things for which available data cannot resolve. Often this is used to destroy the credibility of data that would answer critical questions. It is always possible to bash data sources. You can ask millions of questions about a given source for which you can't easily resolve with other sensible data. For example, climate gas lighters love to engage people in questions about statistical adjustments to raw data. This gets most people way out of their depth in a hurry. What is sensible data cleaning and structuring to disciplined scientist doing the adjustments becomes and endless litany about "what about this issue, what about that," which just confuses and bewilders the propagandist's target. All this is wastes time, raises needless doubt, and distracts from the more important issues. It can also get the target to disbelieve the data and adopt a cynical attitude towards the scientists who produce or use the data.

But here's the thing. All data is crap. It's messy, incomplete, not fully representative. We don't make progress by dismissing data because it is messy or wishing we had better data. How we make progress is to look for consistency across lots of crappy data, especially from different sources. That is, we look for the reliable trends that can be corroborated by different lines of inquiry and different sources of data.

So please, don't get hung up on IFR or CFR. Let academics publish papers on that years from now. That should not be our focus in the present moment. What are the big trends we should be paying attention to? Stay focused on that. You'll nice that kind of charts I like to post. These usually represent what I think are the big, reliable trends that the data are actually telling us. It important to actually look at the observable data. If you are curious about death rates, I'd recommend focusing on death growth rates. This is a fast-moving, dynamic process. IFR is a non-observable end state, who cares? Actual deaths are happing right now, let's see how this is unfolding so we can make sensible choices along the way. Also if you are worried about data issues in counting Covid19 related deaths, know that these data are coming form different countries and local jurisdictions. So the methodologies, issues and biases are all over the place. That's not the issue. When we see similar dynamics emerge from different data sources, we know that we are getting a robust picture of what Covid19 can do. So don't badger the data; compare results from different data sources instead.

We need to keep our heads up and eyes open. Avoid getting lost in things that cannot be seen at this point in time.
This has to be one of the top posts of all time in this thread! Thanks.
 
That reminds me of the survivalists and their doomsday bunkers. Are they now sitting in these bunkers, eating away at their post-apocalyptic food supply, and thinking "told you so"?
They are probably kicking themselves for spending all their money on an arsenal large enough to invade a small country.
We can beat numbers to death, point fingers everywhere, and carry on each day. The stark truth is that ever since 1919, we have been warned by scientists and people in world health that a pandemic would happen, and it would sweep the world. We rocked along for years, and even in the cold war with the threat of nuclear bombs, we never considered seriously stockpiling the basic things needed to expand hospitals and clinics to handle hundreds of thousands of patients. Even the Civil Defense shelters stocked in the 1950' could not have handled the numbers. In short, the world got caught with its pants down. And when this is over, and generations come behind us, they also will ignore what is happening today, and one day face the same crisis.
Thank you for the uplifting post.:p
Obviously this has all happened before and will happen again. South Korea actually seemed prepared for this so it's not impossible. I'm still an optimist, next time we'll do better.
 
They hope hospitalizations will peak 21 days from now. Need 140,000 hospital beds and have 53,000. Need 40,000 ICU beds/ventilators and have 3,000. They're building temporary hospitals and converting college dorms and hotels.
Screen Shot 2020-03-27 at 8.43.24 PM.png

 
They sensitivity and specificity for the SARS-CoV-2 virus and this test isn't published, but here is the link for that data for their Flu A/B test:
I saw a paper on detection of covid-19 virus. The problem apparently is not the PCR test - but sample collection method. Not conclusive - but indicative of problems with virus detection.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762997

There were 1070 specimens collected from 205 patients with COVID-19 who were a mean age of 44 years (range, 5-67 years) and 68% male. Most of the patients presented with fever, dry cough, and fatigue; 19% of patients had severe illness. Bronchoalveolar lavage fluid specimens showed the highest positive rates (14 of 15; 93%), followed by sputum (72 of 104; 72%), nasal swabs (5 of 8; 63%), fibrobronchoscope brush biopsy (6 of 13; 46%), pharyngeal swabs (126 of 398; 32%), feces (44 of 153; 29%), and blood (3 of 307; 1%). None of the 72 urine specimens tested positive (Table).​
 
First question - extremely unlikely (million to one). This is a novel virus and to the best of anyone's knowledge has never been seen by humanity (and we've been looking and sequencing viruses since the 70s).

Second question - yes, it's called a vaccine. We are 6-18 months from that (6 is if the stars align, realistically is more like 12-18).

What about those who are asymptomatic carriers (or the SARS survivors)? Would they not be considered "immune", since Norbert's question wasn't about transmitting the virus?