Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
There was a period where Tesla used SolarEdge inverters. See other threads on this board about people's troubles with them. I think Tesla no longer uses SolarEdge inverters, so current installs should be much less likely to have this problem.
Sure, the SolarEdge problems are over, but Tesla inverters have a different set of problems.
- MCI failures
- Coolant problems like incomplete fill leading to thermal shutdown and coolant leaks
- Mis-wiring of strings that cause repeated overload and shutdown mid-day
I'm sure there are others.

Personally, I recently placed an order for additional solar and I didn't even bother to get a quote from Tesla. I would rather have Enphase micros. I will pay more, but I know what I'm getting.
 
For solar or solar+PW.
Or PowerWall only. There are people who have only a PowerWall and no solar

Or PowerWall with solar from a different source. This is my situation. I have Enphase microinverters going into an Enphase combiner box that can monitor the solar through the Enphase APP and monitor each panel individually. I also have the Tesla gateway for my PowerWall that is still able to read and display my current net solar production after it leaves the Enphase combiner box.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: buckets0fun
This right here.

Politically, California is "all in" on electrification and climate change. It might take a year or three for the pendulum to swing in the opposite direction but eventually they'll figure out they royally screwed up and they need to fix it, if for no other reason than to fix their own optics. I suspect future programs might much more heavily incentivize battery storage over solar given the statewide 4pm-9pm "problem".
Interesting that the powers to be have such short memory of what happened in Nevada, a next door neighbor.
 
  • Like
Reactions: h2ofun
I still don't think prices ($/kW) will go up. There's no reasonable ROI with NEM3. And now your saying people have to buy an even bigger system. No one is going to shell out $80K when they don't get a return for 20 years. I think installers may offer some creative lease/rent plans.
That may be fine for people who tend to die of old age in their house but others who wants to sell, may be a hindrance.
 
  • Like
Reactions: h2ofun
Interesting that the powers to be have such short memory of what happened in Nevada, a next door neighbor.
Yes, my parents have been in the Vegas suburbs since 2011, so as I've tried to pencil out solar ROI for them over the years, I followed that whole Nevada NEM cycle as it was happening. Have no doubt same will happen here in California, but unfortunate it will take a few years for the cycle to implement then "fix" NEM3 in some way.

In thinking about ways they might fix it without going back to a completely NEM2 type structure though:
-NEM3 reduces the benefit of off-peak solar generation (which current TOU periods make most of it off-peak) to just a fraction of NEM1/2, but it is still a benefit.
-the big problem is that reduced annual benefit draws out the payback period to 15 years (by CPUC calcs), or longer (by more reasonable calcs), which is both financially risky and possibly negative ROI to make the investment. If the payback period could be reduced to a reasonable period, then it's less risky, and worth it for many people even with a smaller NEM3 annual benefit after the initial payback period is done.
-NEM2 has highly varying payback periods for different people, depending on their home and roof/shade situation. Some people can get a 3-year payback, and outsized annual NEM2 benefit for 17 more years, versus others with a 7+ year payback, and smaller annual NEM benefit for 13 more years, for example. How to make the benefit more moderate, yet consistent, while still being a benefit.

We know part of the answer is to incentivize storage (ESS). The new federal tax rebates help a lot, put perhaps not enough.

So one thought I have is an additional California tax rebate on the first 10 kwh of ESS. Let's start with a unit of one Powerwall, coupled with an appropriate TOU plan for incentivizing load time-shifting - EV2-A is the only one I think, maybe E-ELEC but I haven't look at that tariff closely. If you use one Powerwall to load-shift 10kwh (not 100% of capacity, just to reserve some for backup) during the summer peak period (when it's most valuable to consumers and to the grid overall), that is a very consistent ~$400/year savings. If you load shift say 5kwh daily the rest of the year, when your solar generation is less), that's a smaller but consistent ~$250/year savings. When I say consistent, that's also consistent for everyone, regardless of how good or bad their roof orientation is, as long as they can generate enough to load shift, and regardless of how large a system they put in, as this rebate would only be on the first 10 kwh of ESS,

They can play with the quantity (e.g. 5 kwh instead of 10 kwh) and the size of the rebate (on top of the federal one) to create any reasonable payback period for everyone - whether 3 years, 5 years, 7 years, on both the ESS and an initial modest solar array to go with it, as well as a consistent but positive return for the remaining life ,whether 10 years or 20+ years, all while NEM3 is unchanged. But any larger ESS or solar beyond that is fully the risk of the consumer, which under our current NEM3 calcs, only pencils out for a few who have the means and the right house.

Of course, any California ESS rebate would be borne by all taxpayers, so will go back to the same NEM3 debate of whether the poor are subsidizing the rich. But at least it is in more direct control of the California legislature rather than the hand-picked CPUC appointees, and can be enacted quickly anytime the legislature wants to take a vote...
 
  • Like
Reactions: charlesj
Sure, the SolarEdge problems are over, but Tesla inverters have a different set of problems.
- MCI failures
- Coolant problems like incomplete fill leading to thermal shutdown and coolant leaks
- Mis-wiring of strings that cause repeated overload and shutdown mid-day
I'm sure there are others.

Personally, I recently placed an order for additional solar and I didn't even bother to get a quote from Tesla. I would rather have Enphase micros. I will pay more, but I know what I'm getting.


You actually found someone who would add solar and tie it into your existing generation panel so it’d feed your Powerwalls?
 
You actually found someone who would add solar and tie it into your existing generation panel so it’d feed your Powerwalls?
Yes, that was a major criteria. I ended up using Swell Energy. They originally installed my Powerwalls under SGIP Phase 1. I put down the deposit in 2017 and they installed in 2018. I just passed the 5 year anniversary of PW installation.
 
Yes, that was a major criteria. I ended up using Swell Energy. They originally installed my Powerwalls under SGIP Phase 1. I put down the deposit in 2017 and they installed in 2018. I just passed the 5 year anniversary of PW installation.


Gahhhhh they wouldn't touch my system since it wasn't originally installed by them 😿 . But they would land a solar breaker on my main panel upstream of the gateway... sigh.
 
That table isn't in the final decision, so I think you are looking at an early version. The CPUC settled on $3.30 per watt.

It is still a BS number that is unobtainable.

If the cost to install shot up by 50% but the ACC rates didn't change much, how come the CPUC payback calculator still arrives at the similar 9 years break-even from the proposed decision?

PS, I still for the life of me cannot come up with the ~$1,230 PG&E-land annual "bill savings" in their solar-only model. A 3.78 kWp-AC system can generate about 6,000 kWh per year. They basically value each kWh generated by this solar system at $0.20... but I can never seem to model that when I look at normal daily home energy usage patterns. It's like they assume >50% of a home's energy footprint happens during the time the sun is shining?

1678124983526.png


1678124932140.png
 
If the cost to install shot up by 50% but the ACC rates didn't change much, how come the CPUC payback calculator still arrives at the similar 9 years break-even from the proposed decision?

PS, I still for the life of me cannot come up with the ~$1,230 PG&E-land annual "bill savings" in their solar-only model. A 3.78 kWp-AC system can generate about 6,000 kWh per year. They basically value each kWh generated by this solar system at $0.20... but I can never seem to model that when I look at normal daily home energy usage patterns. It's like they assume >50% of a home's energy footprint happens during the time the sun is shining?

View attachment 914520

View attachment 914519
Where can I find this "CPUC Payback Calculator"?

I did my own modelling based on my actual pre-solar usage plus PVwatts with a swag at the ACC/ECR numbers back in December which you can find here. Some solar installers are charging a premium well above the expectations of $3.30/W costs, because the fear of NEM 3.0 has increased demand from people wanting to install right now. At least one person has posted Tesla costs haven't changed significantly.
 
Where can I find this "CPUC Payback Calculator"? I did my own modelling past on actual usage a swag at the ACC/ECR numbers back in December which you can find here.


Honestly I have no clue where to download the calculator. It's referenced all the time in the proceeding and the "Net Billing Tariff Modeling Assumptions" are shown everywhere. There's even reference to a 12/31/2022 Public model. But I'm an illiterate so who the hell knows. Let me know if you ever find it.

Edit: lol you paid a pre-ITC cost of about $2.20 per watt (DC) for the "solar only" portion of the system? Lucky SOB.
 
Last edited:
Sure, the SolarEdge problems are over, but Tesla inverters have a different set of problems.
- MCI failures
- Coolant problems like incomplete fill leading to thermal shutdown and coolant leaks
- Mis-wiring of strings that cause repeated overload and shutdown mid-day
I'm sure there are others.
I've been having inverter issues on the new portion of my install. They've been out numerous times, this last visit seems to have helped but it's hard to tell without consistently clear skies. My issue was the inverter cutting out intermittently, not necessarily under max load - just a spikiness to the bell curve at random times and with random frequency daily. My panel is distant from my TEG and communications were dropping - the tech removed a limitation on backfeed that he thought was kicking in whenever communications dropped. The day he was here, the sun was shining and I got a beautiful, normal bell curve the whole day. We haven't had another day clear enough to replicate.
 
I've been having inverter issues on the new portion of my install. They've been out numerous times, this last visit seems to have helped but it's hard to tell without consistently clear skies. My issue was the inverter cutting out intermittently, not necessarily under max load - just a spikiness to the bell curve at random times and with random frequency daily. My panel is distant from my TEG and communications were dropping - the tech removed a limitation on backfeed that he thought was kicking in whenever communications dropped. The day he was here, the sun was shining and I got a beautiful, normal bell curve the whole day. We haven't had another day clear enough to replicate.


Oh yeah - you actually added to your system. Since your 4 PW's put you over the 10kW maximum for the normal NEM2 agreement, did you have to sign a NEM2-MT PTO when you expanded your system?
 
Honestly I have no clue where to download the calculator. It's referenced all the time in the proceeding and the "Net Billing Tariff Modeling Assumptions" are shown everywhere. There's even reference to a 12/31/2022 Public model. But I'm an illiterate so who the hell knows. Let me know if you ever find it.

Edit: lol you paid a pre-ITC cost of about $2.20 per watt (DC) for the "solar only" portion of the system? Lucky SOB.
This isn't that far off from Tesla's pricing today. @andy92782 posted upthread recently $17,536 for 6.4kW or $2.74/watt.
 
This isn't that far off from Tesla's pricing today. @andy92782 posted upthread recently $17,536 for 6.4kW or $2.74/watt.

Tesla wouldn't install the partial home backup and wouldn't do solar on my flat tile roof :( :( :(. But anyway, Sunrun did a good job and I'm generally pleased with their costs and work. Like they had to add a bunch of extra load centers (and disconnects).

What I'm not pleased about is how they seemed to know nothing about ESS and how to navigate the county/PoCo lol.

But man, when they recently quoted me to add 12 more panels (solar only), it was sooooo expensive. Crazy,