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CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion
- Thread starter jjrandorin
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Backup for a few hours a year is one thing. Going off grid is a whole different ballgame in my view. If someone is seriously thinking about going off grid, I would talk to several folks who actually live, or have lived, in an off grid setup before thinking too much about an off grid setup for yourself. Having livid off grid for periods of time, I think that off grid living requires changes to lifestyle, your home, your home appliances, and quite a bit more than just solar and a couple of batteries. I think that one ought to have to have contingency plans for basically everything, and have to put a price on giving up one's current diet, warm / cold food, light, entertainment, and environmental conditioning (warmth/cooling). e.g. how does three weeks of overcast play out? How does snow/ash falling on your array affect you? Earthquake? Hurricane/tropical storm? Nearby lightning? Regulations on wood / battery / fuel storage? Kerosene lightning? What might CPS have to say? How much of that can you fix? How much are you willing to stock for replacement parts? Spare inverters, batteries, generator, generator critical parts...? What if supply chains don't get better?
I know that for many urban, and suburban areas, various agencies would have strong things to say about what might or might not be allowed for off grid, regardless of what the local utility might say. Air quality regulations, noise regulations, and on-site fuel / batteries come to mind.
Retreating into an unheated, unlit cave won't cut it for most folks, so I think that anyone would have to figure out how they want to be living on the spectrum from cave to their current setup.
Don't get me wrong, I think my local utility is scraping the barrel bad, but I can think of much much better ways to spend the money that it would take to go off grid, than actually going off grid. Candidly, I think it would be far far easier to buy an already off grid home than to convert one. I don't see anything close to a reasonable ROI on converting a typical home in a typical location. But that's just me. YMMV...
All the best,
BG
I know that for many urban, and suburban areas, various agencies would have strong things to say about what might or might not be allowed for off grid, regardless of what the local utility might say. Air quality regulations, noise regulations, and on-site fuel / batteries come to mind.
Retreating into an unheated, unlit cave won't cut it for most folks, so I think that anyone would have to figure out how they want to be living on the spectrum from cave to their current setup.
Don't get me wrong, I think my local utility is scraping the barrel bad, but I can think of much much better ways to spend the money that it would take to go off grid, than actually going off grid. Candidly, I think it would be far far easier to buy an already off grid home than to convert one. I don't see anything close to a reasonable ROI on converting a typical home in a typical location. But that's just me. YMMV...
All the best,
BG
Agreed for sure. But for an existing house that is on-grid, if one legally could disconnect from the POCO, it is easy to test the viability. Just install your system that is designed to be 100% grid-independent, and keep it grid connected as a backup for a year. That will generate lots of data, like how often the grid was required or was almost required, etc.
Cheers, Wayne
All this is true, main issues again are in suburban areas, you probably can't even legally go off-grid due to habitation laws, noise requirements (can't run the generator unless there is a wide impact outage), etc.
Going off grid in my mind is also FAR easier if one were a single, sorta ok 'rustic' dude. I wouldn't want to do it with the spouse and kids all yelling at me for being against the utilities and trying this experiment. It's simply not worth it from the mental headache alone. If it was just me though, it'd probably not be that hard from the simple fact that it wouldn't affect anyone else and I have a far higher tolerance for discomfort than everyone else in my family, not to mention how much food/freezer does a single dude really stock up on?
I agree you need ALL types of fuels as well. I've mentioned it before, but to sustain long no solar periods (due to fires/smoke, clouds, etc), I'd get a massive natural gas tank that I used to see in Tahoe cabins, a whole house generator hooked up to the solar, as much batteries as one can afford, V2H, wind even if anything in that area is slightly beneficial.
At current costs, there is clearly no ROI, but that $300k+ or whatever hundreds of thousands in transformer upgrades was needed for that wealthy homeowner and I think if each of us was given $500k to go 'off-grid', I think we'd all take the $500k actually right?
MountainRatMat
Member
I don't think going off grid is as much about ROI as it is about sticking it to the man.
Don't really see how it's sticking to the man ... at least in the context of NEM3 ... more like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.
It's sticking it to The Man if going off grid means you are not giving them any of your money. Not really different to paying extra for "ethical" products.
Column: California strikes another blow against rooftop solar
We need to stop arguing and start working together on a crucial climate solution.
www.latimes.com
From:
California rooftop solar installations drop 80% following NEM 3.0
Over 17,000 layoffs have occurred, representing 22% of the industry. More job losses are expected.
pv-magazine-usa.com
California rooftop solar installations drop 80% following NEM 3.0
Over 17,000 layoffs have occurred, representing 22% of the industry. More job losses are expected.
When I see these biased articles, I do wonder how accurate/true it is, but we'll probably see/know more in the upcoming years if the jobs do all go mostly away.
I just figure from common sense though, wealthy or people of means already did solar years ago. It was hard/costly to get storage on NEM2.0, but now, it's required for any ROI so anyone who didn't do solar back then due to $$ or who didn't move/buy a new house (housing market is so slow due to supply currently anyways), now, every solar install should get some storage for $15k - $20k more or so.
For those regular folks, it was hard enough to get $$ for solar and now, all projects are twice the cost?
I just spent a few hours this morning over a meal with David Rosenfeld who is the founder and main energy behind California Solar Rights Alliance. It was Dave who lobbied Biodiversity.org to get involved in the law suit against NEM3.
I have been doing a monthly donation to Solar Rights Alliance for years now as my money is well spent in this fight. This isn't just about solar or money, but also about the bigger picture of distributed micro grids and climate change. These guys are really doing great and tireless work.
What happens in California has dire ramifications for all the rest of the USA. Even if you are not from California, this should matter to you as well. Please consider a donation.
If you are in California, it is your state assembly member who is in the best position to repeal the utility tax. Please call them, write them, or better yet, walk into their office and "motivate" them. There is good suggestions on strategy on the link below.
The Solar Rights Alliance has a plan for the fight against this utility tax and the can use some more funds for it. Your money goes a long ways with this group. Please consider joining them financially with a monthly support. Proposed Utility Tax would increase electricity bills for millions, undermine rooftop solar, and discourage conservation
I have been doing a monthly donation to Solar Rights Alliance for years now as my money is well spent in this fight. This isn't just about solar or money, but also about the bigger picture of distributed micro grids and climate change. These guys are really doing great and tireless work.
What happens in California has dire ramifications for all the rest of the USA. Even if you are not from California, this should matter to you as well. Please consider a donation.
If you are in California, it is your state assembly member who is in the best position to repeal the utility tax. Please call them, write them, or better yet, walk into their office and "motivate" them. There is good suggestions on strategy on the link below.
The Solar Rights Alliance has a plan for the fight against this utility tax and the can use some more funds for it. Your money goes a long ways with this group. Please consider joining them financially with a monthly support. Proposed Utility Tax would increase electricity bills for millions, undermine rooftop solar, and discourage conservation
A paywalled article about the financing side of solar. I got by the paywall by inspecting the page and was able to read it.
Found here originally:
Why The Residential Solar Industry Is In Danger Of Imploding
"Berger has cut his California sales force and is pushing Tesla Powerwall batteries, which also qualify for the 30% credit. “People are just gonna clip the cord,” he says, when they realize they can survive without the electric companies—which this subsidy junkie denounces, without apparent irony, as “communistic, socialistic, inefficient regulated monopolies.”"
www.forbes.com
Found here originally:
Why The Residential Solar Industry Is In Danger Of Imploding
"Berger has cut his California sales force and is pushing Tesla Powerwall batteries, which also qualify for the 30% credit. “People are just gonna clip the cord,” he says, when they realize they can survive without the electric companies—which this subsidy junkie denounces, without apparent irony, as “communistic, socialistic, inefficient regulated monopolies.”"
Why The Residential Solar Industry Is In Danger Of Imploding
This $30 billion industry is built on a shaky foundation of cheap money, questionable accounting and aggressive claims for federal tax credits. With money no longer cheap, subsidies a matter of politics and swirling allegations of fraud, a collapse could be coming soon.
www.forbes.com
will probably see more and more of this. Yet, local solar companies are still claiming 7 year ROI. I don't see how
www.sfchronicle.com
Bay Area solar company to cut 350 jobs as demand plummets
Fremont-based Enphase Energy plans to reduce its global workforce by 10%, which is about 350 workers.
www.sfchronicle.com
NEM3.0 appeal failed, maybe further appeal to CA Supreme court it sounds like:
www.sandiegouniontribune.com
From:
Some comments about the whole rich/poor is sorta funny considering the CPUC is now attacking poor people too who majority live in apartments who may have had solar prior so had lower bills for the whole building, but there was some ruling which forced them to not get credit anymore at the full rate even if they were on NEM2.0 I think.
Poor person on this income based thing at like $30-$45 extra a month is going to get majorly screwed as well as wealthy people paying $120-$130/month.
California court zaps lawsuit seeking to overturn new rooftop solar rules
Appeals court in San Francisco upholds California Public Utilities Commission decision; one petitioner hints at taking the case to the California Supreme Court
www.sandiegouniontribune.com
From:
Some comments about the whole rich/poor is sorta funny considering the CPUC is now attacking poor people too who majority live in apartments who may have had solar prior so had lower bills for the whole building, but there was some ruling which forced them to not get credit anymore at the full rate even if they were on NEM2.0 I think.
Poor person on this income based thing at like $30-$45 extra a month is going to get majorly screwed as well as wealthy people paying $120-$130/month.
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charlesj
Active Member
NEM3 only applies to solar owners. What applies to everyone and you should be furious about is AB205 which is a severe tax that every customer of PGE, SCE, and SDG&E will pay based on your income. It is not to late to reverse it, contact your local state assembly.
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