Curious about Battery Fire Risk

[thesmokingman]

How are you figuring those odds? I'm not saying you're wrong, but you've provided no evidence to prove you're right.

And not to pick on Hyundai/Kia, but:

> August 23, 2022 | Washington, DC

Hyundai Motor America and Kia America recommend that owners of select Model Year 2020-2022 Hyundai Palisade and Kia Telluride vehicles park their cars outside and away from homes and other structures until their vehicles have been repaired, due to new recalls for the risk of fire.

Additionally, a “stop sale” is being issued as of today’s filing, in accordance with federal regulations, for affected unsold vehicles at dealers and vehicle processing centers.

The recalls involve 245,030 Model Year 2020-2022 Hyundai Palisade vehicles (NHTSA ID: 22V-633) and 36,417 Model Year 2020-2022 Kia Telluride vehicles (NHTSA ID: 22V-626). An accessory tow hitch sold through dealerships may allow moisture into the harness module, causing a short circuit. In some cases, an electrical short can cause a vehicle fire while driving or while parked and turned off.

There are no confirmed fires, crashes or injuries related to this condition in the United States.



> Nov. 1, 2022, 5:56 PM EDT
By Rob Wile
Hyundai has issued a new recall for approximately 44,000 model year 2018 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport vehicles due to a risk of fire.
The anti-lock brake system (ABS) module could malfunction and cause an electrical short, which could result in an engine compartment fire while parked or driving, the company said.


> February 8th, 2022 Hyundai and Kia, two automakers that share a corporate parent, have each issued new recalls for vehicles that can catch fire. The recalled vehicles include 2016-2018 Hyundai Santa Fe, 2017-2018 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport, 2019 Hyundai Santa Fe XL, 2014-2015 Hyundai Tucson, and 2014-2016 Kia Sportage SUVs, and the 2016-2018 Kia K900 sedan. According to the automakers—which share parts, designs, and suppliers—owners of these vehicles should park their cars outdoors and away from structures until a recall repair is completed.

How about Ford?

> May 19, 2022 | Washington, DC

Ford Motor Co. is warning rental car companies and other owners of 2021 Ford Expeditions and Lincoln Navigators to park their vehicles outside due to the risk of fire. The automaker has confirmed 16 fires, mostly in vehicles that were unattended. Fourteen of these fires were in rental cars.

Until further notice, owners of these affected vehicles should not park them inside – they should only be parked outside and away from homes and other structures. Fires have occurred in vehicles that were parked and turned off.


I don't know what the odds are for ICE vs EV catching fire, but it sure seems like ICE cars also have multiple ways to catch fire while parked.

Don't forget BMW, the king of parked ICE cars catching fire. Also, the assumption that an ICE parked cannot catch fire is patently false. BMW addresses by admitting that even while parked, ICE cars have ecu's that remain on and that there are still hot wires/sensors active that then can catch fire.

BMW recalling 1.03 mln vehicles worldwide on engine fire risk

BMW will recall 1.03 million worldwideover potential fire risks, the German automaker said on Wednesday, its third recall over the issue since 2017.

www.reuters.com

 

[jcanoe]

The odds of a parked ICE spontaneously catching fire while parked in your garage are practically zero, because an ICE vehicle at rest has few if any internal catalysts that are going to ignite a sealed tank of fuel.

Many ICE vehicle fires are electrical. This is especially true in older high mileage vehicles where wire insulation may have worn and touching conductors short and start a fire. There are many plastic components in a modern vehicle that are flammable. The fire can then spread to other areas of the vehicle. (A friend's Tahoe ended this way. The Tahoe's engine compartment was consumed by the fire up to the firewall before the Fire Department came and put out the fire.)

 

[240vPlug]

This is the short video I shared a while back. Talking about helping ease concerns over EV fires. I first shared the idea of a thermal alarm when the Bolt EV recall was announced.

It would be good to have a standard thermal alarm for all EV. This way years from now everyone would hear the sound and know exactly what it is.

 

[FLRifleman]

Both gas and electric cars can catch fire, either due to an accident or a flaw/failure. The fires in the Bolts, for example, were due to a battery manufacturing flaw.
With a battery powered car in an accident, the time for the damaged pack to build up enough heat to ignite will be much longer than a gas car, where fuel can spill on hot exhaust components. Therefore, you should have more time to exit the car. On the flip side, battery electric car fires are much more difficult to put out than a gas powered car.
Regarding how many battery electric cars just catch fire while parked due to a defect? That seems to be very, very low. The number of electric cars on the road however is also low, so we need a larger population with some statistics to really have those odds down.
The bottom line is I personally wouldn't be concerned about it, and this is coming from a critically thinking guy who's not a fanboy.

A good news report today of an incident & fire reflects my prior post well.
Summary: The driver hits an object in the road which damages the battery. This results in the reaction fire, and they are able to safely get out, however putting out the fire isn't simple. You basically have to keep it from spreading, and let it burn itself out.
Pennsylvania Tesla bursts into flames, photos show unrecognizable metal husk

 

[zoomer0056]

A good news report today of an incident & fire reflects my prior post well.
Summary: The driver hits an object in the road which damages the battery. This results in the reaction fire, and they are able to safely get out, however putting out the fire isn't simple. You basically have to keep it from spreading, and let it burn itself out.
Pennsylvania Tesla bursts into flames, photos show unrecognizable metal husk

A lesson learned here. Add "steer clear of road debris" to the OP's EV fire mitigation plan. This also applies to ICE vehicles.

 

[FLRifleman]

A lesson learned here. Add "steer clear of road debris" to the OP's EV fire mitigation plan. This also applies to ICE vehicles.

Very true, and manufacturers do take measures to protect the battery. However, sometimes on the highway there are objects which are hard to avoid, especially at night when your viability & response time is lower. It's also why when I travel long distance, I try to do so during daylight hours when possible.
The worst I've recently seen was a washing machine, standing upright, in the middle of a lane, on the 70mph highway.

 

[nwdiver]

That's pretty sweet. When did the electric snow plows come out?

 

[ZenRockGarden]

Do any of you guys have any worries about driving teslas and them catching fire? I am seeing a lot of videos about Teslas catching fire in crashes, which increases fatality of the crash. I come from driving Mercedes vehicles and they are some of the safest vehicles on the road. I mean if that is the case I am worried about purchasing and would rather just continue driving an internal combustion vehicle. Plus I think the fires will become more common as more EVs are purchased.

Not a troll post and have serious worries before purchasing.

Given that the incidence of fires in gasoline-carrying cars is higher than in battery powered Teslas, I would suggest you take your concerns to those who jump in vehicles which have 20-odd gallons of potentially explosive petrochemical fire accelerants in them right alongside a purposeful combustion process that operates far above the ignition threshold of said petrochemical fuel.

 

[thesmokingman]

Link shamelessly taken from investors thread...

Ford Motor Co. is recalling over 634,000 SUVs worldwide because a cracked fuel injector can spill fuel or leak vapors onto a hot engine and cause fires.

Ohnoes, what will the OP think now? Though on topic, that's a pretty freaking bad fail, with injectors cracking lol.

Ford recalls over 634K SUVs due to fuel leaks and fire risk

Automaker says a cracked fuel injector on some Bronco Sport and Escape SUVs can spill fuel or leak vapors and cause fires.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[buckets0fun]

Link shamelessly taken from investors thread...



Ohnoes, what will the OP think now? Though on topic, that's a pretty freaking bad fail, with injectors cracking lol.

Ford recalls over 634K SUVs due to fuel leaks and fire risk

Automaker says a cracked fuel injector on some Bronco Sport and Escape SUVs can spill fuel or leak vapors and cause fires.

www.cbsnews.com

Likely a failure at a supplier level. Incorrect mixture for the plastic pellets, bad oring supplier, and so on.

 

[jjrandorin]

Over 250,000 Subaru Ascents Recalled Because They Might Catch Fire

The recall includes Ascents from the 2019 to 2022 model years.

jalopnik.com

Over 250,000 Subaru Ascents Recalled Because They Might Catch Fire​

The recall includes Ascents from the 2019 to 2022 model years.​

===================
Yes, I realize this is a bit of piling on, but it also CLEARLY outlines the point that was repeatedly made in this thread that this occurs in multiple car brands, EV or not.

 

[sleepydoc]

The article containing this graphic was linked to earlier but I think the graphic summarizes the risk quite well:

@lionzer26125 - do you still think people are underestimating the risk? How do you reconcile the statistics with your anxiety?

As others have accurately pointed out, the real risk and concern of fire is whether you will be injured or killed. While gasoline typically explodes, battery fires develop more slowly. Tesla and other EV manufacturers specifically look At safety issues and have also looked at the time required for a fire to progress vs the time for occupants to exit the car. In the event of a fire, you’ll have more time to exit an EV than an ICE car.

Finally, regarding your misplaced concern about the car spontaneously exploding in your garage, the number of cases of ICE cars catching fire in a garage dwarfs the number of EV fires, so again, it’s not a rational concern.

I agree with @jjrandorin - you make a post that is somewhat alarmist, claim not to be trolling but specifically ignore all the evidence against your claim. To be blunt and possibly a bit rude, at this point, either explain why you are still concerned, or come out and admit you can’t have a rational discussion Because the only options I can see at this point are that you’re either trolling, or irrational. Either way there’s not much point in spending more forum space.

 

[Supcom]

The article containing this graphic was linked to earlier but I think the graphic summarizes the risk quite well:
View attachment 884310
@lionzer26125 - do you still think people are underestimating the risk? How do you reconcile the statistics with your anxiety?

As others have accurately pointed out, the real risk and concern of fire is whether you will be injured or killed. While gasoline typically explodes, battery fires develop more slowly. Tesla and other EV manufacturers specifically look At safety issues and have also looked at the time required for a fire to progress vs the time for occupants to exit the car. In the event of a fire, you’ll have more time to exit an EV than an ICE car.

Finally, regarding your misplaced concern about the car spontaneously exploding in your garage, the number of cases of ICE cars catching fire in a garage dwarfs the number of EV fires, so again, it’s not a rational concern.

I agree with @jjrandorin - you make a post that is somewhat alarmist, claim not to be trolling but specifically ignore all the evidence against your claim. To be blunt and possibly a bit rude, at this point, either explain why you are still concerned, or come out and admit you can’t have a rational discussion Because the only options I can see at this point are that you’re either trolling, or irrational. Either way there’s not much point in spending more forum space.

3.5% of hybrids catch fire?! That certainly seems to be very high.

 

[thesmokingman]

3.5% of hybrids catch fire?! That certainly seems to be very high.

They dip from two baskets, double the fun?

 

[sleepydoc]

3.5% of hybrids catch fire?! That certainly seems to be very high.

Yeah, I saw that, too. I didn’t see a breakdown of the exact causes of the fires but something isn’t adding up there.

Other interesting data to add would be incidents of fires per mile driven. According to this article it was 1:200M miles or 10x better than the industry average. (I think someone also mentioned that above.)

Fires related to vehicle age would be good to see, too but difficult to compare because EV sales have only recently taken off meaning there are relatively few older vehicles from which to pull data. I'd expect the numbers for newer EVs to be better not only because of age but because Tesla and others have gained more experience with battery pack design.

 

[Mariano]

I really appreciate the question, and your desire to differentiate between what is fact and what is a feeling.
Recently, there was a Tesla fire in my community, and it went up in flames in their garage. No surprise, the pictures of the burnt car and resulting damage to the garage made the rounds.

From a thinking trap perspective, an availability heuristic is a mental shortcut that relies on examples that quickly come to mind when calculating probability.

So given that Tesla is such a polarizing brand, there is no shortage of fire footage online, and in my case, in the neighborhood. So, it’s easy to get pulled into the narrative that Tesla cars are dangerous.

However, I’m not sure if that feeling can be substantiated. Given how serious car fires can be, I’ll be doing more research on the topic.

What’s been interesting so far is that some of the reports say that the model S is more likely to catch fire than the other models.

Lots of information to parse through.

Mariano

 

[sleepydoc]

What’s been interesting so far is that some of the reports say that the model S is more likely to catch fire than the other models.

If I'm not mistaken, the Model S still uses 18650 batteries as opposed to the 2170 (and now 4680) batteries that the 3 and Y use. That doesn't automatically mean less safe, but they are different so they may have different safety characteristics.

I think the more likely explanation is that the Model S has been around longer. Tesla has updated and improved their batteries during that time so the battery from an 8 year old model S may well be less safe than the battery from a 5 year old model S. Then, of course, the 3 and the Y didn't even exist 6 years ago.

 

[MY1stEV]

He's a fun one to add to the mix, another fire recall on the Chevy Bolt.

In an accident, the Chevy Bolt EV could catch on fire, not from the batteries... but the seat belts. The explosive charge in the seat belt pretensioners could set the carpet on fire.

Chevrolet Bolt Recalled for Seat Belt Fire Risk - Consumer Reports

 

[Supcom]

I really appreciate the question, and your desire to differentiate between what is fact and what is a feeling.
Recently, there was a Tesla fire in my community, and it went up in flames in their garage. No surprise, the pictures of the burnt car and resulting damage to the garage made the rounds.

From a thinking trap perspective, an availability heuristic is a mental shortcut that relies on examples that quickly come to mind when calculating probability.

So given that Tesla is such a polarizing brand, there is no shortage of fire footage online, and in my case, in the neighborhood. So, it’s easy to get pulled into the narrative that Tesla cars are dangerous.

However, I’m not sure if that feeling can be substantiated. Given how serious car fires can be, I’ll be doing more research on the topic.

What’s been interesting so far is that some of the reports say that the model S is more likely to catch fire than the other models.

Lots of information to parse through.

Mariano

How many gasoline cars caught fire in your community lately? You probably don't know and can't find out. They aren't reported by news media unless the fire is somehow unusual. This is the problem using anecdotal evidence in your decision-making process. The fact that a much lower percentage of Teslas catch fire than of ICE vehicles has less impact that a single report of a Tesla catching fire in your neighborhood.

 

[MY1stEV]

How many gasoline cars caught fire in your community lately? You probably don't know and can't find out.

If you live in Atlanta and follow @atlscoop on Instagram you'll see it averages about 5 per day just on I-75/85/285 during the summer months.