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Dc combo for USA port
- Thread starter Wkwjsrjal22
- Start date
Kerosene heaters in Teslas is not going to happen.
The auto-preconditioning of batteries at Superchargers in winter (if you set it as your destination) should help, albeit I have not had to try it yet. I have heard it works well though. Also, as I said, greater range across the board is coming. In the meantime, I would not object to having a special winter supplementary battery that you could plug into the frunk (would require a mod for existing vehicles). I have wondered about that possibility, although never seen it mentioned that Tesla is even considering it.
The auto-preconditioning of batteries at Superchargers in winter (if you set it as your destination) should help, albeit I have not had to try it yet. I have heard it works well though. Also, as I said, greater range across the board is coming. In the meantime, I would not object to having a special winter supplementary battery that you could plug into the frunk (would require a mod for existing vehicles). I have wondered about that possibility, although never seen it mentioned that Tesla is even considering it.
Charging would not have to be quite that quick to be practically as quick. A battery fill up in 5-8 minutes would mean very little effective extra time spent. At that level of difference, nobody notices, since you might be going to the washroom, buying some chips, having a quick bit to eat, cleaning the windscreen, etc., in any event.
Check out the V3 charging times in this artice Tesla Model 3 V3 Supercharging: Is It Really That Fast?. Charge taper starts to kick in below 20% SoC, so sub 10 minute 10% to 80% charging is complete fantasy for the foreseeable future.
They could ship a hybrid capacitor / battery system to take charge at a higher rate and transfer to the battery while rolling. There seem to be a number of patents in this area, as well as some built applications in very large vehicles - at least one technology-demo locomotive used this system to capture the extremely high currents generated by dynamic braking.
israndy
Supercharger Hunter
I think what @miimura is saying is correct. The reason the Model 3 battery tapers so quickly is because the battery is so small. I can pull into a V3 supercharger on fumes and be at 80+% in under 25 minutes. This is likely going to continue to be true as the truck and roadsters come out. The c-rate of the bigger batteries will allow them to charge at a higher rate longer allowing the 0-80% charge to happen in about the same amount of time on a V3 as my Model 3.
If you are trying to talk an ICE owner into a BEV the conversation has to stop when they ask how long it takes to charge. Unlike a gas car, batteries will take forever to charge from 50-100% and you have to change your thinking about that. It is the Bottom Half of the battery that charges quickly. The car is designed to pull into the charger with very little range remaining and then get to your next destination in the same state. So your car can tell you to get back on the road when you are far from full, to save you time. In that sense, I rarely am ready to go before my car is when I Supercharge.
Be sure to emphasize that the car does all the trip planning for you and will route you such that you spend the least amount of time stopped to charge. You won't ever be stuck at a charger for an hour unless you have an old worn out Model X.
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The Cybertruck will undoubtedly make much better use of V3 supershargers, if for no other reason than pack size and I'm interested to see what the charge curve of the new 82kWh LR 3 packs is. As for always supercharging from 5% to ~50%, that puts a lot of wear and tear on the battery and there are still a lot of holes in the supercharger network that require charging to 90+% and/or a L2 top-up stop.
israndy
Supercharger Hunter
My point was not to ONLY charge in that range, it would be determined by the NAV software where you stop and how much you consequently need to charge. But when I charge in that range I am often on the road again before 15 minutes elapse. The car is always calling me while I am in the restroom, telling me it's almost done.
That's what the ICE drivers want to know, or need to know to compare to what they are driving now.
That's what the ICE drivers want to know, or need to know to compare to what they are driving now.
Is this part of what you wrote actually true? I thought that this sort of charging - presumably interspersed with lots of standard charging at home - is well within the range of acceptable practice with Tesla batteries. Indeed, I thought that small Supercharger top-ups were what was expected as standard practice.
The real issue is solely relying on fast charging. I.e. apartment/condo dwellers without access to L2 chargers at home/work. Using the SC network for the occasional road trip is not a problem. Just like charging up to 100% before a road trip is not a problem.... provided it's not done every single day for years on end.
FMinMI
Member
Studies I read said an 'optimum' charge cycle for Li Ion is 75 to 25%. That is what I do except on trips.
Interesting point. My own comment/question was more about people who use little Supercharger top-ups on a regular basis (but who also do regular home charging), which I thought was fine.
However, I have wondered about your point about constant Supercharging. My previous understanding was that this was not good for the battery, but I thought that there were some recent indications that it actually does not lead to any inordinate degradation: that batteries are performing better than expected in this situation. I am far from sure about this though. Certainly as electric vehicle adoption increases, there are going to be people without home charging who will be relying more extensively on fast chargers. I am hoping that they will not be out-of-luck.
Ah sorry, misunderstood. Yes, "little top-ups" really shouldn't be a problem.
As for the long-term problems related to 100% SuperCharging, that is interesting. The biggest know issue is the infamous "ChargeGate". That seems to only affect the 85kWh batteries. Basically, those battery controllers had a defined kWh limit at which point they'd start artificially limiting the max kW while SuperCharging. This was done (presumably) to help preserve battery life.
While the 85kWh batteries may be the most affected by frequent fast charging, all batteries will degrade slightly more when fast vs slow charged. That being said, as battery technology evolves, so does the resistance to this. So... Does that mean that apartment dwellers are out of luck? No. But, after a few years of constant SuperCharging they will have noticeably less range than an otherwise identical car that is regularly L2 charged. And.... Does that matter? Maybe? Probably? Unlikely? With an ever-growing network of SuperCharging stations, getting 250 vs 300 miles of range becomes less and less important.
israndy
Supercharger Hunter
I read somewhere
J. B. Straubel - Wikipedia
said that the issue is really heat that kills batteries. When I charge at home my battery never gets warm, but when I DCFC I see it typically get to 135°F before the cooling kicks in. @Big Earl mentioned to me that he sees the cooling always kick in at around 60% charge, I haven't noticed as I usually watch Netflix while I charge so I don't often notice the cooldown.
I am curious if JB was referring to "We actively keep the batteries cool so they don't deteriorate" or "You should charge at home as Supercharging always makes the batteries get hot and leads to their deterioration"
I know that they actively HEAT the batteries if you head to a Supercharger when the battery is cold-soaked. I think they may also cool the battery if you head to a Supercharger when the battery is stressed on a hot day after climbing a big hill or towing. I recently started using TesLAX, but I haven't figured out how to watch that active cooling or heating other than watching the battery coolant temps directly.
I know the old Model S's were limited in their Supercharging speed after a certain amount, I am curious if that will happen to our Model 3s and if it does will it be based on Time spent DCFC'ing or Kilowatts received or Time spent with battery coolant at high temps. My car gets regular 39-45 kW CHAdeMO charges, but it takes an hour to fill an empty battery. If I was at a Supercharger it would take 1/2 to 1/4 of the time to do it, so the battery stays hot longer but gets hot slower.
So would it be BETTER or WORSE for the battery to charge faster?
[Randy's patented off-topic follow-up]
J. B. Straubel - Wikipedia
said that the issue is really heat that kills batteries. When I charge at home my battery never gets warm, but when I DCFC I see it typically get to 135°F before the cooling kicks in. @Big Earl mentioned to me that he sees the cooling always kick in at around 60% charge, I haven't noticed as I usually watch Netflix while I charge so I don't often notice the cooldown.
I am curious if JB was referring to "We actively keep the batteries cool so they don't deteriorate" or "You should charge at home as Supercharging always makes the batteries get hot and leads to their deterioration"
I know that they actively HEAT the batteries if you head to a Supercharger when the battery is cold-soaked. I think they may also cool the battery if you head to a Supercharger when the battery is stressed on a hot day after climbing a big hill or towing. I recently started using TesLAX, but I haven't figured out how to watch that active cooling or heating other than watching the battery coolant temps directly.
I know the old Model S's were limited in their Supercharging speed after a certain amount, I am curious if that will happen to our Model 3s and if it does will it be based on Time spent DCFC'ing or Kilowatts received or Time spent with battery coolant at high temps. My car gets regular 39-45 kW CHAdeMO charges, but it takes an hour to fill an empty battery. If I was at a Supercharger it would take 1/2 to 1/4 of the time to do it, so the battery stays hot longer but gets hot slower.
So would it be BETTER or WORSE for the battery to charge faster?
[Randy's patented off-topic follow-up]
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It would be nice to have the option to power limit if the supercharger isn't busy, especially at V2 stations, so you can go for lunch and not worry about idle fees and if someone does pull into the paired stall, they get the lions share of the power.
FMinMI
Member
The slower you charge a battery, the less strain it put on lithium ions and the 'structures' accepting them. And charging at a specific temperature (based on the chemistry matrix) will also increase longevity. Tesla's BMS will either heat up or cool the battery to minimize damage during fast charging, as well as slow down the charging rate when it cannot stay within a specific temperature range or when the cells voltage gets close to 'full'.
I just want to mention that as with a lot of things, there is sometimes a negative effect from the extreme at the other end. I saw this data a few years ago, but haven't had much luck Googling it again, so no links--sorry. But being in the state of charging is still more stressful on the battery than being in a resting or slow discharge state. So:
The general statement of "slower is better" is mostly correct, unless you get down to where the power is SO low that it blows out your charging time to 5X or 10X what you would normally do, and the battery is spending the majority of its time in a charging state. That builds up some wear on the battery too. So this is mainly to people where I see them talking about turning the amps down to 5 or 6 because they think slower is always better, and it's eventually not when you get down that low.
FMinMI
Member
The studies I read say the best compromises for battery longevity and 'usefulness' is to keep them within the 25-75% range. I L2 charge overnight at 12A when it gets in the 25-45% range.
And I forget to mention - when I do charge at this rate, the BMS is very happy - don't hear the fan come on during the summer (trying to cool down the batteries) and therefore reducing wear/tear on the fan plus not dumping heat into the garage. And in the winter, it is just enough to keep the batteries warm enough so that when I leave in the morning, I usually don't see the limited regen " ! " notice.
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israndy
Supercharger Hunter
Nuts, I may be killing my battery. I *mostly* charge DCFC at the free CHAdeMO in town. But I also charge off my solar panels, and in order to not pull from the grid when I charge I plug into 120v and drop the amps to 12-14. Saving money on free charging and eating my 3yo battery alive...
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