SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Arnis, your dislike of my post asking for facts is enough. You are thrown in the NULL basket
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Dieselgate
- Thread starter mspohr
- Start date
Doing nothing does not lessen the impact.
You are again lumping all emissions together and assuming new vehicle production + 20 years of operation is worse than 15 more years of the non-conforming vehicle. The manufacturing will generate additional emissions. However, for every point in time after that, the cleaner car will be better for people than the dirty car.
A car factory produces regulated emissions at one point once. A noncompliant car produces unregulated emissions everywhere for years. Five years after the car was built, the factory emissions impact is negligible, but the vehicle emissions continue.
If this was some borderline almost compliant level, the math might work out, but VWs produce up to 40 times the allowed NOx emissions. That means getting a VW off the road 6 months early offsets the entire 20 year life of a replacement car's operation.
Sure that is worst case conditions, but say it is only 5x, that means pulling a VW out of circulation when it is less than 16 years old is a net emissions save. Call it 10 years to include the plant (which doesn't make NOx in any great amount).
Sure that is worst case conditions, but say it is only 5x, that means pulling a VW out of circulation when it is less than 16 years old is a net emissions save. Call it 10 years to include the plant (which doesn't make NOx in any great amount).
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Nice reasoning, although you probably have to include the emissions related to electricity consumption during manufacturing. Depending on the energy sources, they can be quite high. Diesel level per kWh, in fact.
I don't think car manufacturers or suppliers generate their electricity with inefficient diesel.
Here's an actual study of life cycle of EVs.
New Report On Electric Vehicles From A Life Cycle & Circular Economy Perspective | CleanTechnica
Electric vehicles from life cycle and circular economy perspectives - TERM 2018
Thanks for the chart. It looks like my adjustment of 5 year worth of driving energy as the manufacturing energy was about right (ignoring emissions type/ quantity per energy unit).I don't think car manufacturers or suppliers generate their electricity with inefficient diesel.
Here's an actual study of life cycle of EVs.
New Report On Electric Vehicles From A Life Cycle & Circular Economy Perspective | CleanTechnica
Electric vehicles from life cycle and circular economy perspectives - TERM 2018
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
I don't either. I was reminding you of the embedded pollution of the electricity used to produce the cars.
Per https://www.researchgate.net/figure...-CO2-NOx-and-SO2-from-US-power_fig3_260305932
about 1 gram per kWh when coal is the source
And how much is that up to 40x. Or 4000%?
40x and 4000% has no value as a data.
This is EXACTLY what I said. Typical media victims.
Up to 50% lower prices.
Killing up to 99,9% of all germs - is it good? Is it bad?
Washing hands with water removes 20-30% of all germs. Is that good or bad?
If we remove 99,9% of all germs, we are left with no less than 30 different types and having few millions germs of each type chosen at random. I would bet that having 700 species each few hundred million units each is pretty much the same.
We need just one germ or virus unit to screw us up.
How much DieselGate VW does pollute?
Less cancer and smog causing emissions is better, period.
They tested the cars. The cars produced 40x the NOx emissions allowable, they also produced all values from the limit to 40x. I paired it down to 5x, one eighth of the worst data collected and showed that, even with manufacturing emissions, replacing a car with more than 10 years of life is a net improvement.
Seriously? I already said it is 40x the allowed maximum.
For the US that is 0.2 to 0.4 g/mi depending on vehicle type. Emission Standards: USA: Cars and Light-Duty Trucks—California
Is 0.3 g/mi good or bad?
Is 3.0g/mi good or bad?
Is 30g/mi good or bad?
How much NOx can and will Ford F-150 push out?
Other continents (Asia, Europe). What is the limit there compared to US?
Where is average lifetime or overall health better. US or elsewhere?
WTF? It is all bad. It is toxic, it is harmful.
How much lead would you like in your drinking water?
If you care about other vehicle limits, click the link I provided (light trucks are 0.4). Or Goigle yourself. I'm done.
If you are done before finding out at least something about "how much is 0,3g/mi compared to something else" then please stop stating things you don't know and you are done with. You don't know and you are not willing to learn.
NOx is not Lead.
How much CO2 are you willing to breathe in? - your statement "It is all bad" is as bad as this question.
Now go exhale some CO2 and intoxicate everybody else with your toxic emissions.
NOx is not Lead.
How much CO2 are you willing to breathe in? - your statement "It is all bad" is as bad as this question.
Now go exhale some CO2 and intoxicate everybody else with your toxic emissions.
Twaddle emissions are high at the moment because people get emotional (for example about wind farms or nuclear power) and no-one talks about numbers. Or if they do mention numbers, they select them to sound big, to make an impression, and to score points in arguments, rather than to aid thoughtful discussion
David Watson
Ecopragmatist, clean energy advocate, humanist.
Right now it is a case of NOx twaddle emissions.
David Watson
Ecopragmatist, clean energy advocate, humanist.
Right now it is a case of NOx twaddle emissions.
Brando
Active Member
Not sure which surprises me more:
1- Audi put 4 diesel emission cheating devices in their 3 L V-6 Diesel Engine. through 2017 ?? (VW & Porsche use this engine)
2- German regulators continue to prosecute German company executives that are responsible.
[ Can you imagine the US doing the same?? Actually sending people to jail?? ]
[Corporations are people under US law perhaps we can see Ford or GM go to jail]
Google Search: fuel economy rating deceit
1- Audi put 4 diesel emission cheating devices in their 3 L V-6 Diesel Engine. through 2017 ?? (VW & Porsche use this engine)
2- German regulators continue to prosecute German company executives that are responsible.
[ Can you imagine the US doing the same?? Actually sending people to jail?? ]
[Corporations are people under US law perhaps we can see Ford or GM go to jail]
Google Search: fuel economy rating deceit
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Brando
Active Member
color me confused - you think execs are scapegoats? how does that work??
Probably too subtle for me to understand.
Diesel particulates are particularly bad - a bad pun too?
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
I think that the entire upper echelon and the boards of each of the VW arms are complicit.
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