Oh okay.. that's something else then. Appreciate the explanation. Kinda so weird that Tesla is now selling FSD with HW4, and charging for FSD, while the vehicle can't yet support FSD.
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Does HW4 matter
- Thread starter CTruck_BMW
- Start date
That's a whole different discussion, but to summarize. Tesla differentiates FSD Capability and FSD Beta...FSD Capability has always been for sale and subscription, even when FSD Beta doesn't allow new testers. So in Tesla's messed up world, FSD (Capability) is available for any car, HW4 included.
Well, it supports FSD, but not all the features. The ones listed require very accurate measurement close to the car and that just shows you where the state of play is at with HW4.
Keep in mind that any improved capabilities may not be totally implemented in the software just because the hardware is capable of it. You would hope, but no guarantees.
Keep in mind that any improved capabilities may not be totally implemented in the software just because the hardware is capable of it. You would hope, but no guarantees.
USS aren't required for FSD, just for parking/summons.
HW4 runs FSD 11.4.X just about as well/poorly as HW3 currently.
When did they officially pull the use of USS from the S/X. I know they pulled it from the 3 in Oct of last year. My larger point is it comes as part of the FSD pkg. When they didn't have EAP as an option, it was bundled with FSD when you bought/subscribe to it. If you subscribe to FSD now, then is part of the FSD package. If you buy FSD, then summons and parking is part of it.
If you buy EAP, since you can't subscribe to it, then it (summons and parking) is part of that package. If you buy FSD or EAP, it is part of the package. I guess that is a better way to put it. I'd use parking more than I'd use FSD.
This article is a good overview. Keep in mind it is from Oct of last year when they crippled the 3/Y and the functionality still isn't restored yet anywhere to the level it was before.
www.forbes.com
If you buy EAP, since you can't subscribe to it, then it (summons and parking) is part of that package. If you buy FSD or EAP, it is part of the package. I guess that is a better way to put it. I'd use parking more than I'd use FSD.
This article is a good overview. Keep in mind it is from Oct of last year when they crippled the 3/Y and the functionality still isn't restored yet anywhere to the level it was before.
Tesla Removes Ultrasonic Sensors In Bold Move That Cripples Features But Promises To Restore Them
Tesla will disable park-assist and auto park on new cars until they are able to make these work with just cameras. It's a bold step for a carmaker to remove a checklist feature and promise you will get it later.
www.forbes.com
Here is an excerpt from Tesla. I won't bother parsing the BS included in it. I would like them to define however "short period of time." In the S's owner's manual, they just say "This feature may be temporarily limited or inactive" regarding summons and parking. No time frame for when it will be restored.
That's Tesla for you. Could be back by the time they roll out HW5. Maybe there will be a HW4.5. They did have an HW2.5. Never know with Tesla. That is why I just buy what is actually working at the moment. Sure I'd like to future-proof as much as possible but I am dealing with Tesla.
Tesla Vision Update:
Safety is at the core of our design and engineering decisions. In 2021, we began our transition to Tesla Vision by removing radar from Model 3 and Model Y, followed by Model S and Model X in 2022. Today, in most regions around the globe, these vehicles now rely on Tesla Vision, our camera-based Autopilot system.
Since launch, we have continued to make incremental improvements in both feature parity and safety. Compared to radar-equipped vehicles, Model 3 and Model Y with Tesla Vision have either maintained or improved their active safety ratings in the US and Europe, and perform better in pedestrian automatic emergency braking (AEB) intervention.
Today, we are taking the next step in Tesla Vision by removing ultrasonic sensors (USS) from Model 3 and Model Y. We will continue this rollout with Model 3 and Model Y, globally, over the next few months, followed by Model S and Model X throughout 2023.
Along with the removal of USS, we have simultaneously launched our vision-based occupancy network – currently used in Full Self-Driving (FSD) Beta – to replace the inputs generated by USS. With today’s software, this approach gives Autopilot high-definition spatial positioning, longer range visibility and ability to identify and differentiate between objects. As with many Tesla features, our occupancy network will continue to improve rapidly over time.
For a short period of time during this transition, Tesla Vision vehicles that are not equipped with USS will be delivered with some features temporarily limited or inactive, including:
Given the incremental improvements already achieved with Tesla Vision, and our roadmap of future Autopilot improvements and abilities, we are confident that this is the best strategy for the future of Autopilot and the safety of our customers.
That's Tesla for you. Could be back by the time they roll out HW5. Maybe there will be a HW4.5. They did have an HW2.5. Never know with Tesla. That is why I just buy what is actually working at the moment. Sure I'd like to future-proof as much as possible but I am dealing with Tesla.
Tesla Vision Update:
Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision
Safety is at the core of our design and engineering decisions. In 2021, we began our transition to Tesla Vision by removing radar from Model 3 and Model Y, followed by Model S and Model X in 2022. Today, in most regions around the globe, these vehicles now rely on Tesla Vision, our camera-based Autopilot system.Since launch, we have continued to make incremental improvements in both feature parity and safety. Compared to radar-equipped vehicles, Model 3 and Model Y with Tesla Vision have either maintained or improved their active safety ratings in the US and Europe, and perform better in pedestrian automatic emergency braking (AEB) intervention.
Today, we are taking the next step in Tesla Vision by removing ultrasonic sensors (USS) from Model 3 and Model Y. We will continue this rollout with Model 3 and Model Y, globally, over the next few months, followed by Model S and Model X throughout 2023.
Along with the removal of USS, we have simultaneously launched our vision-based occupancy network – currently used in Full Self-Driving (FSD) Beta – to replace the inputs generated by USS. With today’s software, this approach gives Autopilot high-definition spatial positioning, longer range visibility and ability to identify and differentiate between objects. As with many Tesla features, our occupancy network will continue to improve rapidly over time.
For a short period of time during this transition, Tesla Vision vehicles that are not equipped with USS will be delivered with some features temporarily limited or inactive, including:
- Park Assist: alerts you of surrounding objects when the vehicle is traveling <5 mph.
- Autopark: automatically maneuvers into parallel or perpendicular parking spaces.
- Summon: manually moves your vehicle forward or in reverse via the Tesla app.
- Smart Summon: navigates your vehicle to your location or location of your choice via the Tesla app.
Given the incremental improvements already achieved with Tesla Vision, and our roadmap of future Autopilot improvements and abilities, we are confident that this is the best strategy for the future of Autopilot and the safety of our customers.
The Park assist was delivered so really it's just Autopark and Summons, which are terrible for everyone and haven't been worked on since the original deployment. Single stack parking lots, which "was to be finished in November" will solve that, likely for everyone and probably why it's taking so long.
This is absolutely the only rational thing to do.
It's the exact same advice I give about almost any technology ... if it works for you now, buy it. Don't trade on futures - you'll only end up disappointed.
BitJam
Active Member
Tesomega
Member
On the road I am fine for the most part with AP, since phantom braking hasn't been an issue on my S. Was a terrible issue on my Y. I use it a lot in rush hour traffic.
I spent a fair amount of time with FSDb (beta version of FSD) that can navigate on city streets and it has definitely gotten better. It was on an HW3 car. It was about as hesitant as my wife at some intersections which was annoying.
On the less dangerous intersections and turns, it did well enough that I could live with it. Still wouldn't pay a lot of money for it but if I got it for about $5k, I might bite. At the 15k price, I want whatever Elon is smoking. Elon kept jacking up the price to lure people into buying it. I'd rather pay 20k for fully baked FSD than 15k for a promise it might work someday. At least I know what I'd be getting.
I spent a fair amount of time with FSDb (beta version of FSD) that can navigate on city streets and it has definitely gotten better. It was on an HW3 car. It was about as hesitant as my wife at some intersections which was annoying.
On the less dangerous intersections and turns, it did well enough that I could live with it. Still wouldn't pay a lot of money for it but if I got it for about $5k, I might bite. At the 15k price, I want whatever Elon is smoking. Elon kept jacking up the price to lure people into buying it. I'd rather pay 20k for fully baked FSD than 15k for a promise it might work someday. At least I know what I'd be getting.
Your experience is very different from mine. I just finished my first road trip in my new '23 MYLR with the final two hours in the dark. Even on the interstate I continuously saw various "camera blocked" messages come and go. Mostly the pillars. Those kept me from being able to change lanes during navigate on autopilot. I finally switched to cruise control and had to *gasp* steer on my own.
itch808
Member
The beauty of Plaid vehicles, is that their price will always be "shielded' by the MS-LR or MS-SR (and of course the MY or M3 cause most people would rather get a 2-4 years old MS or MX than a new MY or M3 (I said most not all). A plaid, for same mileage and condition, will always be at least 10K more than the regular MS (in my view). It is more rare, and will continue to be so, and that may also help to maintain it's value down the road. If 2016-2018 (5-8 years old) MS cars are selling for 32-40K now, you'd assume that in the future, the current MS 5-8 years from now will drop to similar values, with FSD maybe another 3K or so, and hence a well spec'd Plaid+FSD in my view will plateau around the 50s or so for those looking to drive a Plaid for the next 5-8 years. Am not sure that I'd keep it that long if I buy it, but I did some market trends research and accounted for worst case scenario (including potential pride reductions) and I found that a pre-owned Plaid nowadays even for mid 80K with FSD is the best value for the money and will see the least amount of depreciation (percentage and as an absolute value). The only thing that could change all of this is if the MS-SR will get a 10K price reduction down to 68K...
"The beauty of Plaid vehicles, is that their price will always be "shielded' by the MS-LR or MS-SR"
Hate to break it to you, but all of the Model S's tank so hard that we are all screwed, but you will definitely lose more total money and a larger percentage of your money with a Plaid, and you're really screwed if you bought FSD. That's already proven, and it's a normal phenomenon with used daily driver cars that you lose less money with the bare bones, bottom of the line model vs a fully loaded, top of the line model of the same car. The Plaid is, and always will be, a daily driver, not some limited production collectible, so they will follow normal used car patterns of resale. As they age, I see the Plaid being less desirable to used car buyers because, as the "super performance" version, it's more likely to have been driven hard and put up wet, it will cost more to repair those fancier motors out of warranty, and it has less range while otherwise looking exactly the same and having almost identical features as the still crazy fast lower cost versions.
Hate to break it to you, but all of the Model S's tank so hard that we are all screwed, but you will definitely lose more total money and a larger percentage of your money with a Plaid, and you're really screwed if you bought FSD. That's already proven, and it's a normal phenomenon with used daily driver cars that you lose less money with the bare bones, bottom of the line model vs a fully loaded, top of the line model of the same car. The Plaid is, and always will be, a daily driver, not some limited production collectible, so they will follow normal used car patterns of resale. As they age, I see the Plaid being less desirable to used car buyers because, as the "super performance" version, it's more likely to have been driven hard and put up wet, it will cost more to repair those fancier motors out of warranty, and it has less range while otherwise looking exactly the same and having almost identical features as the still crazy fast lower cost versions.
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I was referring to an already well depreciated pre-owned Model S Plaid also with FSD (hence i neither paid for FSD and neither absorbed the depreciation) and it had already sat now at 10K above MS LR in the pre-owned market. As for range, i get that but with 19" wheels for those who need the range the difference in mileage is only 10 miles.
I personally don't buy autos to retain value. I buy, drive for 10 or so years...and then replace. After 10 years, the resale value of these cars is going to be more dependent on condition and mileage, not which options or powertrain. There can be wild fluctuations in short-term value of "recently new" cars...and those fluctuations can be driven by macroeconomic factors completely out of your control.
Yes but you answered to my original comment wherein I specifically mentioned (2-3 years of ownership plan). As a car who likes to try new toys very often, in most cases, my decision to buy or sell is always driving my the financial aspect of it. That's just me. So, with that in mind, I'd appreciate any feedback to be based on those boundary conditions for my case, just to avoid confusion (at least for those looking to help me with their feedback). If it was a BMW or Benz, I am 100% comfortable with projections as I have been buying and trading them in 1-3 years for more than 20 years now. Am just not that tunes to Tesla trends but I kinda made a good database while researching them over the past few weeks.
Personally, I would not be comfortable projecting trade-in values of any relatively high priced car. EVs in particular (since the technology is so new). However, in 3 years, ICE trade-in values could nose-dive more than expected if the market continues its shift from ICE to EV.
So in my opinion: Tesla Model S Trade-in value is definitely a risk...and ICE luxury trade-in somewhat of a risk when compared to past history. Sorry I don't have any first-hand data point for you myself on Tesla Trade in. The only way to "guarantee" a "projected trade in" value...is to lease.
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