Driving Model 3 Performance and Pilot Sport 4S at 0F

[12yan]

Before I get flamed out over driving summer tires at 0F, I've just got off the phone with the Tesla SC in Mount Kisco (NY) who told me that I'll be fine to drive on the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S in temperatures as low as 0F. Michelin says that for these tires they shouldn't even be flex at temperatures below 20F, so I'm a bit confused.

Of course I plan to get winter tires (already ordered from Tesla) but I've just taken delivery of my car equipped with the summer tires (in January in NY!) and will have to wait 4-6 weeks for the new tires. As I weigh the option of storing my brand new M3 and renting a car any constructive comments or user experiences would be appreciated. I'm well aware that the SC suggestion is far out of line with the tire specs.

*Complaining: Tesla needs to have a reasonable solution for performance M3s delivered in the winter. Driving out of the showroom into temperatures that the tire manufacturer says are well out of spec and waiting a month and a half for proper tires sounds reckless to me. At the very least, advanced warning that the appropriate tires are not available and the equipped tires are not appropriate would seem in order.

 

[skrtskrt]

I ran into the same issue back in November when I was picking up my P3D+. Knowing this, I ordered Michelin A/S 3+ a week in advance from my delivery date and ordered it to the service center to be swapped out on the day of delivery.

 

[alee]

Here's how I look at it - the compound of summer tires get very very hard in the cold. At some point they become brittle. They of course still work, and they flex and they will absorb impact, but it's not something you want to be doing on a regular basis. Certainly I would heed the warning that repeatedly subjecting your summer tires to these harsh conditions will damage your tires. But it's not like 20F is a magic number where if it's 18F you've exceed that magic number. But Michelin will not warranty you for sure for driving in under 20F and something happens.

Personally i am less concerned with the cold, and more concerned with traction. You will have NO traction should you hit a patch of ice. Summer tires are crazy terrible in these conditions. I would be very wary of attempting anything the next day if it rains or snows.

I just got snow tires/wheels on this morning after a month-long backorder from TSportline. It's only in the 30s right now but you can definitely feel the difference in the tire compound - the sport tires were like rocks, and the tread on the snow tires were still flexible. I've been an anxious wreck watching the weather and hoping it wouldn't snow before I got them on.

 

[kbecks13]

That's pretty cold, it's one thing to drive them near freezing but 0F is well below that. It's not just that you have less traction, but you can actually crack the rubber on the tire and ruin them.

You don't have to order your wheels or tires from Tesla, you can get a new set of wheels from tons of different vendors (i personally have VMR wheels and they are machined to fit P3D) and order tires from someone like Tire Rack.

 

[UngaBunga1989]

I have been driving my M3P in some pretty chilly temps and have not had any problem with traction. No, I have not taken it out in the snow, but I have driven the car in temps down to 25 degrees. Remember, tires heat up when driving. Are winter tires really necessary if you don't plan on driving in the snow and live in the NY Metro area?

And, if the consensus is "absolutely you need winter tires," should I get them put on the stock rims or buy a whole new set of wheels / rims? Advice? Brands?

 

[kbecks13]

Are winter tires really necessary if you don't plan on driving in the snow and live in the NY Metro area?

And, if the consensus is "absolutely you need winter tires," should I get them put on the stock rims or buy a whole new set of wheels / rims? Advice? Brands?

It's almost like you didn't read what i just wrote...

It's not just about traction, you can cause irreparable damage to the tire from exposing it to cold temps. I would suggest either running an all-season tire on your stock rims year round or buying a second set of wheels and tires that you can change in spring/fall. You could probably get a more summer oriented all-season if you don't need tons of winter grip.

I'd suggest Tire Rack ratings and reviews for finding a good tire in whatever performance category you decide on (i.e all-season vs summer all-season vs winter).

 

[mswlogo]

I suspect there is a VERY good chance your near $2000 worth of tires will be ruined. Not to mention huge risk of an accident in Winter.
You are probably being slammed right now and wicked cold temps to follow.

Store it. I wonder if Tesla could loan tires for a fee. They carry spares for Service.

I've read those tires should not even be STORED below 20F, never mind driven on.

 

[UngaBunga1989]

It's almost like you didn't read what i just wrote...

It's not just about traction, you can cause irreparable damage to the tire from exposing it to cold temps. I would suggest either running an all-season tire on your stock rims year round or buying a second set of wheels and tires that you can change in spring/fall. You could probably get a more summer oriented all-season if you don't need tons of winter grip.

I'd suggest Tire Rack ratings and reviews for finding a good tire in whatever performance category you decide on (i.e all-season vs summer all-season vs winter).

Actually, I thoroughly read what you wrote which is why I asked the questions that I did. I greatly appreciate the feedback and have opted to go with a second set of wheels with Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ in the same size as the stock Pilot Sport 4S tires for the winter months...

 

[Jedi2155]

Definitely. Don't do what I did. My vehicle lost traction on an icy road and nearly hit another vehicle but I saw it on the rearview camera (which I turned on last seconds), and swerved my vehicle into a snowpile instead. My car literally went backwards about 50 feet.

[REPAIR] Cost to Estimate to replace Bumper?

 

[bradhs]

You'll ruin the tires plus it's not safe.

I've tried it for a short period of time. It's like the tires turn into ice skates. They get really hard and you can sort of feel it.

 

[Ejl80]

You will permanently damage the tires and risk your life driving on them. I understand your complaint of the SC not knowing the proper information, but they are far from the only manufacturer that does that. BMW doesn't verbally warn you (but it is in the manual). Why do you have to wait 4-6 weeks for tires? Tire Rack could have tires to you overnight??

Also.. despite what the SC told you, this is straight from the Model 3 manual.

Seasonal Tire Types

Summer Tires

Your vehicle may be originally equipped with high performance summer tires or all season tires. Tesla recommends using winter tires if driving in cold temperatures or on roads where snow or ice may be present. Contact Tesla for winter tire recommendations.

Warning: In cold temperatures or on snow or ice, summer tires do not provide adequate traction. Selecting and installing the appropriate tires for winter conditions is important to ensure the safety and optimum performance of your Model 3.

 

[vjason]

Tire companies typically don’t extend full warranties to new car (OEM) tires, and I’m betting you might need to go though Tesla for OEM tire warranty service.

Michelin is no different than BF Goodrich was for me back in the day: Tire Warranty | Michelin Promise Plan
Footnote from that page.

1. Original Equipment tires are excluded (from the full warranty)

OEM Michelin basically get treadlife and defect coverage.

I assume new rim/tire sets bought from Tesla get full coverage, but I would verify this.

Also, remember that not all tire shops will mount used tires for liability reasons, so swapping tires back to summers on the same rims may take some hunting for a shop that will do it.

 

[run-the-joules]

Who are you going to trust when it comes to the tires? Some random guy at a service center for the car, or the manufacturer of the TIRES?

If you drive it, you risk damaging the tires, and more importantly, you're basically begging for a crash.

 

[ℬête Noire]

I've just got off the phone with the Tesla SC in Mount Kisco (NY) who told me that I'll be fine to drive on the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S in temperatures as low as 0F.

A mantra to help transform your life to a gently flowing river of blissfulness:

"Tesla Rando on the phone is NOT a reliable source of info."
"Tesla Rando on the phone is NOT a reliable source of info."
"Tesla Rando on the phone is NOT a reliable source of info."
"Tesla Rando on the phone is NOT a reliable source of info."
"Tesla Rando on the phone is NOT a reliable source of info."
"Tesla Rando on the phone is NOT a reliable source of info."

P.S. If it comes from someone on the sales floor you'd be better off betting against it.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

In my opinion Tesla should simply allow the customer to dictate which tires it comes with during delivery.

Tesla has a 20" Winter Tire option so why not just allow the customer to select it?

And, why doesn't Tesla have an 18" or 19" solution for a Winter tires/wheels for the P3D+ ?

I have a P3D+ with the summer performance tires, and I haven't really decided what I'll do. On cold days I've been simply driving my other car while the Tesla sits in the garage.

On 40F, and over days I've been driving the Tesla and the traction seems fine. Most days in the Seattle area are 44F and raining.

I've been debating about getting the Tesla 20" Winter Tire/Wheel set, and swapping them out once a year or getting 18-19" wheels that are designed to fit the P3D+. With the smaller wheels I'll have more efficiency for the Winter.

 

[ℬête Noire]

And, why doesn't Tesla have an 18" or 19" solution for a Winter tires/wheels for the P3D+ ?

Because they don't have 19" rims for it yet, as engineering design did a small change to the P hubs so that the rims need to have a small inset machined around the center hole. Their 18" rims are even worse because they don't fit over the rear calipers, nearly no 18" rims do, so I don't expect Tesla to ever ship 18" rims for the P. Even for the 3rd party 18" rims that do fit is so close that it can be within manufacturing tolerances on the calipers so one side will rub, and need grinding off non-structural trim on the calipers, and not on the other side.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Because they don't have 19" rims for it yet, as engineering design did a small change to the P hubs so that the rims need to have a small inset machined around the center hole. Their 18" rims are even worse because they don't fit over the rear calipers, nearly no 18" rims do, so I don't expect Tesla to ever ship 18" rims for the P. Even for the 3rd party 18" rims that do fit is so close that it can be within manufacturing tolerances on the calipers so one side will rub, and need grinding off non-structural trim on the calipers, and not on the other side.

I know why the existing rims didn't work, but it's not like Tesla didn't know well in advanced of what the P hubs were going to be to prepare for it.

Of course this is the same Tesla that didn't have touch up paint for my Model S until well after a year after I bought it.

 

[ℬête Noire]

....but it's not like Tesla didn't know well in advanced of what the P hubs were going to be to prepare for it.

What do you base that assertion/assumption off of?

EDIT: Even if they did it wouldn't change that it would require another part to design, proof, number, and carry inventory on. For a variant that they weren't sure how much they'd sell, and didn't even nail down the feature set until a couple weeks before opening orders. Oh, and also removed the P- option, which didn't require different tires for, after they did open orders and started delivering.

Welcome to automobiles done Silicon Valley style.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

What do you base that assertion/assumption off of?

The assumption of good execution? That everything would be tested/validated well before the release. Sure I know this is Tesla so that was likely an unrealistic expectation to make. I did acknowledge that with my joke about the touch up paint.

In any case Tesla slapped the 310 range label on the P3D+, but we all know the P3D won't do 310 miles with the 20inch tires.

Tesla should have a wheel/tire combination offering that can obtain that 310 mile EPA range.

The only way I know of to obtain the same range as the AWD version is to get a wheels from someone other than Tesla.

 

[ℬête Noire]

Sure I know this is Tesla so that was likely an unrealistic expectation to make.

It's an unrealistic expectation because it's not the approach that Tesla repeatedly demonstrated success using to execute. Don't think it's "good"? I urge you to step back and check the scoreboard. You can hang out there with Mr. Sandy Munro.

This is rapid development. This is what iteration at speed, and aggressively keeping lean inventory & product lines looks like.