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EAP on window sticker but I didn’t pay for it, it worked initially and then didn’t
- Thread starter FM1988
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Is there a way to generate and print your sticker online based on the VIN? My car didn’t come with the sticker anywhere.
Watts_Up
Well-Known Member
From this story it looks like Tesla acts like those drug dealers outside of a high school, giving some free sample...
However, time to time there was some free temporay trails for consumers who didn't bought the EAP.
Note: In 2018, there was EAP and FSD options. I wonder if the OP stil have EAP?
However, time to time there was some free temporay trails for consumers who didn't bought the EAP.
Note: In 2018, there was EAP and FSD options. I wonder if the OP stil have EAP?
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Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Here's the actual relevant law with the $1000 fines.
15 U.S. Code § 1233 - Violations and penalties
Actual US law contradicting your claim said:
The word dealer doesn't even appear in that law.
Just manufacturer.
Which Tesla clearly is.
Thus they are required to attach the sticker to the car (and in section 1232 it mandates that yes, it MUST BE ON THE WINDOW)
Further in section C-
Actual US law contradicting your claim said:
Notice how that also makes no mention of a dealer in any way?
anybody who removes it other than the purchaser is guilty of violating federal law to the tune of $1000 per offense.
If the local store (NOT a dealer!) removes it- that's a violation of federal law.
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ucmndd
Well-Known Member
I tend to resist generational stereotypes but this whole thread and the entire premise of this discussion is Level 7 Millennial.
Major disagree:
1233 enumerates the penalties for not following 1232
From your post:
For completeness clause b)
1232 says:
Indeed, Tesla is all manufacturer, not dealer. The definition from 1231:
No dealers, no sticker requirements.
Appologies to the thread, my earlier comment regarding difficulty changing the sticker was incorrect for Tesla.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Boy this is gonna be embarrassing for you.
Wrong.
You managed to find the Definitions section (1231)- then only read part of it.
ALSO from 1231...the definition in the law of a dealer.
US law said:
Tesla absolutely has dealers under that law.
The folks who deliver your Tesla to you.
There's nothing about franchises, subcontractors, etc. that often define dealers under STATE laws.
It's any person who is engaged in sale or distribution of new automobiles to the end user.
So, yes, Tesla has exactly the same requirements as all other car makers here.
Which is they face a $1000 fine for failing to attach the Monroney to the window of the car before sending it to the dealer (which, again, for Tesla, IS A THING THEY HAVE UNDER THAT LAW- typically whatever folks handle the end user delivery)
And there's also a $1000 fine if anybody other than the end buyer removes that sticker.
So when a customer shows up to take delivery, and they find the Monroney anywhere other than attached to the window, either Tesla never attached the sticker and they're on the hook for a $1000 fine (per car they do that too) or they DID, and someone in the (as defined under 1231) dealer chain during distribution of the car to the end user removed it, and THEY are on the hook for a$1000 fine per car.
As I say though- nobody seems to really enforce this law. Doesn't change the fact it exists.
Incorrect, not embarassing, I read all the definitions (I also read the word dealer ten words before windshield in the section of 1232 you quoted).
Defintion a) overrides definition e)
Again for reference:
"(a) The term “manufacturer” shall mean any person engaged in the manufacturing or assembling of new automobiles, including any person importing new automobiles for resale and any person who acts for and is under the control of such manufacturer, assembler, or importer in connection with the distribution of new automobiles."
Tesla delivery centers are staffed by Tesla employees, thus they "acts for and is under the control of such manufacturer".
"(e) The term “dealer” shall mean any person resident or located in the United States or any Territory thereof or in the District of Columbia engaged in the sale or the distribution of new automobiles to the ultimate purchaser."
If 'dealer' overrides 'manufacturer ' then Tesla car hauler drivers would be dealers, not manufacturer employees. Indeed, manufacturers would be dealers since they are "engaged in the sale or distribution to purchasers".
In the case of Tesla, the manufacturer is filling the role typically held by the dealer, but that does not make them a dealer.
For historical context, the law was created in part to even out and level the relationship between OEMs and dealers.
PowerBankT
Member
Wow man. You are literally a complete douche. Approach people with some humility/class maybe.
On this note, you're simply incorrect here. Tesla is not required to affix the sticker to the window, as they're not classified as a dealer and this is not regulated by this law. If you think you know more about Tesla's process than Tesla, I implore you to reach out to Tesla legal and let them know you've discovered the find of the century that will save them Millions in legal fees. Maybe they'll even put you on the board after this. Please let us know what incredible job offer they make once you let them know the error of their ways. I can't believe that not one person at Tesla, over 45,000 employees ever once even considered that they might have to place that sticker to the window, just you. Isn't that amazing?
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
uh, no, it does not.
They define different things. Neither "overrides" the other.
Right. Tesla (and those who distribute their cars) are manufacturers under item a. No dispute there.
Right. The folks who do the distribution are dealers legally.
There's no reason the same person can't have 2 titles.
In this case the manufacturer and dealer are the same person
Not sure how or why this would be confusing. Nothing in the law prevents that from being the same person.
Nothing has to override anything. One can be more than 1 thing at the same time, legally.
Another good example is firearms.
A dealer and a manufacturer are different things but one person can be both at the same time.
Exactly the same deal here.
Hell- same for drugs under the law- One can both manufacture and distribute them- which are legally different things but can be done by the same person and legally they are BOTH manufacturer and distributor.
Tesla, legally under 1231, is both manufacture and dealer of their vehicles.
And as such, under 1232, required to attach the Monroney to the window or, under 1233, face a $1000 per car fine.
And as 1233 also notes, anybody other than the end buyer who removed it from the window would be subject to a $1000 fine.
Hope this clears up your misunderstanding of the law.
You're the one who jumped in telling folks (wrongly) that the law said Tesla didn't have to do this.
If you're upset about being proven wrong that's on you. But no, instead of double down on wrong.
Again the text of the law says otherwise.
They are a dealer under 1231 of the law. As well as being a manufacturer.
Maybe try reading the law next time before you try "explaining" it?
Dropping to this specific instance for a moment, in OP's state (which is where the removal occurred) you cannot legally be both dealer and manufacturer.
If you are allowing dual titles, then the definitions/ distinction is meaningless.
"(a) The term “manufacturer” shall mean any person engaged in the manufacturing or assembling of new automobiles, including any person importing new automobiles for resale and any person who acts for and is under the control of such manufacturer, assembler, or importer in connection with the distribution of new automobiles."
"(e) The term “dealer” shall mean any person resident or located in the United States or any Territory thereof or in the District of Columbia engaged in the sale or the distribution of new automobiles to the ultimate purchaser."
If you allow that OEMs are in the chain of distributing vehicles to the ultimate purchaser, then one of these is redundant. The addition of the wording "including any person" would seem to indicate an attempt at inclusion (which matches state laws).
If dealers are manufacturers, then there is no passage of the car from manufacturer to dealer which is the triggering event (regardless of definition, the car does not change possession and is always in Tesla's control. Heck, could go straight from factory to buyer).
Every manufacturer of new automobiles distributed in commerce shall, prior to the delivery of any new automobile to any dealer, or at or prior to the introduction date of new models delivered to a dealer
This may all be sorted out in the Tesla v MI federal trial in February. In the meantime, can we agree that 1233->1232 does reference dealer (in terms of transfer to), and that, IF Tesla were only termed a manufacturer, this law does not currently apply as written?
SabrToothSqrl
Active Member
PowerBankT
Member
It obviously doesn't apply or Tesla would be affixing stickers to windows.
Why Knightshade thinks he knows more than Tesla's Board and Legal team I have no idea, but he's on one something fierce over there.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Which has literally nothing to do with the topic, since we're discussing federal law.
No, it's really not.
Each definition imposes specific, not always overlapping, obligations on a party.
If you are a dealer you must do X.
If you are a manufacturer you must do Y.
nothing in the federal law suggests the same person can't be both- and thus have to do both X and Y.
No, it isn't.
They're defining different things, with different obligations.
But again one can be both.
But one isn't required to be both.
Hence why you need individual definitions for each- but there's nothing there preventing the same person from falling under both definitions.
See again firearms, drugs, and nearly anything else that is federally regulated but the person manufacturing and distributing may or MAY NOT be different.
But again, they very clearly are both manufacturer and dealer under the exact text of 1231.
If the law didn't apply because of that then they wouldn't need to provide (or even bother creating) a Monroney at all
They do though.
Why?
See above.
If the law does not apply to them (which, clearly, it does) why do they provide a Monroney at all
They could be saving $ on every car not bothering to do that since, incorrectly, you think the only federal law that brings up Monroneys at all, does not apply to them.
As to your suggest tesla would never break the law- that's explicitly false as well.
For example my car was delivered to me, in addition to the illegally-not-affixed sticker, without a state inspection done either.
That's illegal under NC law. Also with a fine attached.
And after speaking with the inspection station that Tesla uses in the area they confirmed mine wasn't the only one that happened to.
They were in a rush to delivery to make Q3 numbers, so they just skipped that part and hoped nobody reported it or fined them for it.
Tesla is not infallible, especially related to stickers. China imports had the wrong stickers which held them up at the dock and they just had a recall due to no airbag sticker on the sun visor (combo LHD and RHD parts in same car, I think).
Which is why I lead with a disclaimer "Dropping to this specific instance for a moment," (and the laws of OPS state are germane the the thread as a whole). Further, Federal only trumps state in a clear conflict.
Definition define roles. Laws define requirement of the roles. If you allow dual role in this case, the car never transfers from manufacturer to dealer and the sticker requirement is not triggered..
OK, this is now proof by example which is not what either of us is interested in.
People want to know the options on the cars, that is why Tesla puts it on.
Tesla apparently sometimes does not provide the sticker or attach it. Why?
Watts_Up
Well-Known Member
I was looking at the VIN number and I noticed that there is no information related to the battery size (SR, MR, LR) or options like EAP or FSD.
So how do you check if you received the car that you ordered and pay for it?
So how do you check if you received the car that you ordered and pay for it?
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
There's nothing to 'trump' here.
The Monroney being on the window is a federal requirement.
In all states.
This might help by providing yet another example in federal law where dealer and manufacturer have different, individual, definitions but can very clearly both apply to the same party.
18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions
Federal definition of firearms dealer said:
Federal definiiton of firearms manufacturer said:
So it's possible to be a federally licensed dealer ONLY under the law.
It's also possible to be a federally licensed manufacturer ONLY under the law.
And, of course, its possible to be BOTH things under the law. (in fact one, but not all, types of manufactuer licences includes the right to act as a dealer)
Same deal with vehicles under the 1231 definitions.
You can be a car manufacturer only.
You can be a car dealer only.
You can also be both.
PJFW8
Red Menace may hurt me
I am a (happily) retired state judge. This discussion reminds me of letters I got from folks I sent to prison. Find a different hobby.
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