Electrify America Fast Chargers - Huh?

[Big Earl]

Not sure what the problem is here, Rivian will have DC fast chargers that will give you 140 miles in 20 minutes. This is very close to the Tesla Superchargers, so to me compared to everything else out their they are supercharges.

Does that make a 350 kW Electrify America station a supercharger? IMO, no... it's a DC fast charger. The Tesla Supercharger is a brand name subset of DC fast chargers.

Rivian's own marketing material refers to the Rivian Adventure Network as DC fast chargers. To refer to them as superchargers would really muddy the water, particularly when many people hoped they would join the Tesla Supercharger Network.

To be a bit more pedantic, a lowercase s supercharger is a device that compresses air going into an internal combustion engine, increasing its effective displacement and power output. A capital S Supercharger is a Tesla branded DC fast charger.

 

[SageBrush]

Not sure what the problem is here, Rivian will have DC fast chargers that will give you 140 miles in 20 minutes. This is very close to the Tesla Superchargers, so to me compared to everything else out their they are supercharges.

It's simple. 'Supercharger' is a Tesla specific brand name, and those chargers ***only*** work with Tesla cars. It has nothing to do with how fast they are.

 

[Merrill]

It's simple. 'Supercharger' is a Tesla specific brand name, and those chargers ***only*** work with Tesla cars. It has nothing to do with how fast they are.

Glad no one else can use that brand name.

 

[Merrill]

I guess what confused me was the pedestals that Rivian is using which look similar to the Tesla supercharging pedestals.

 

[Big Earl]

Like Tesla, I think Rivian's design is clean and elegant. Nicer, in my opinion, than some of the flashier green LED-emblazoned stations that EA is using. You can only put so much design work into a charging station before it gets prohibitively expensive or ridiculous looking, so props to Rivian for what they've come up with.

 

[cwerdna]

Glad no one else can use that brand name.

In the US, there are 3 plug incompatible DC fast charge standards for consumer automobiles:
1) CHAdeMO
2) Tesla Supercharger w/Tesla's proprietary North American connector
3) SAE Combo flavor of CCS aka Combo1 aka CCS1 aka J1772 CCS

To call SAE Combo (or CHAdeMO) charger a supercharger or Supercharger is super confusing. At the moment, no US-market Teslas can use SAE Combo unless they want to play with fire and use an unsupported 3rd-party adapter like CCS Adapter | SETEC POWER. And, they can't use CHAdeMO without CHAdeMO Adapter.

If you keep telling drivers of CHAdeMO or SAE Combo equipped cars (most non-Tesla BEVs sold in the US) about "superchargers" they might go and try to use Tesla Superchargers, only to be disappointed. They can't use them: WHY WONT IT FIT!?!?! - My Nissan Leaf Forum. We should disambiguate and NOT add to confusion by calling stations, plugs or inlets of #1 and #3 "superchargers" , "supercharging", "super...", etc.

And, if you keep talking about #1 and #3 as "superchargers" to Tesla drivers, they might show up disappointed: not being able to plug in since Tesla doesn't yet sell a CCS adapter for the US and the CHAdeMO adapter isn't standard (costs $400).

I've seen reports on Bolt FB groups of Teslas showing up to EA DC FC sites almost out of juice, finding out that their plug doesn't fit, being frustrated and leaving. Duh.

 

[designrs]

So if Musk is so “open” to other brands using Tesla Superchargers, does anyone know any facts about why it isn’t happening?

 

[Big Earl]

So if Musk is so “open” to other brands using Tesla Superchargers, does anyone know any facts about why it isn’t happening?

Probably because the buy-in cost gives other manufacturers sticker shock. Also, I doubt Tesla wants slow cars (Bolt EV, for example) on the network, so that rules out quite a few of the current EVs.

 

[e of pi]

So if Musk is so “open” to other brands using Tesla Superchargers, does anyone know any facts about why it isn’t happening?

I think the question if Tesla is "open' to other companies using Supercharger is one of those questions that has a long answer of "Yes if" and a short answer of "No, but...:".

Basically because while Tesla is "open" to other cars using Supercharger and the Tesla plug, the rumors heard every time they talk about doing so in practice very much are about gatekeeping it in ways that make other company's reluctant to commit to using it. Right now, Tesla is the only source for Supercharger hardware from car-side connectors to cabinets and pedestals, including the functional documentation (very different from releasing the patent). For the cost of a couple hundred dollars, you as a private citizen can go buy the SAE spec for their DCFC, which lays out dimensional and electronic standards and tolerances for building each side of a CCS charger, and the communications protocols which will act between a car and a station. The net result is that there's five or six providers for CCS and Chademo stations, and a large number of third-party networks which a company building a car or installing a station can choose from and have compete against each other for a bid.

Tesla, before they give another company that document and permission to manufacture any of their own equipment want things like asking other brands to pay up-front costs for each car they'd build which would be able to use the network or per time one of their cars access a Tesla charger, and likely want to retain the ability to kick other companies off the network and control which cars get to use supercharging as they do for salvaged older Teslas. While those aren't necessarily deal-breakers if that was the only way to get DCFC, it's a lot to put up with before you can ship a single car or adaptor able to use the network, especially when other manufacturers can just use the common CCS and save the trouble.

 

[Rocky_H]

So if Musk is so “open” to other brands using Tesla Superchargers, does anyone know any facts about why it isn’t happening?

Early on, I think it was mostly that these "real" companies didn't want to dignify with a response admitting that this young upstart pipsqueak of a so-called car company had anything they needed. Now that Tesla is bigger and more established, it's a bit understandable that other car brands would be reluctant to put their customers in front of stalls with bright red letters advertising for a competing car brand.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

So if Musk is so “open” to other brands using Tesla Superchargers, does anyone know any facts about why it isn’t happening?

Elon has said that they are working with at least one manufacturer that will share the Tesla supercharger network. If you watch promotional videos for Aptera, you'll notice the Tesla charge port and several interior parts look like they are straight out of a Model 3.

Large volume manufacturers would be expected to contribute proportionally to the Supercharger network build-out. A small volume manufacturer such as Aptera wouldn't have to pay as much to join the Supercharger network and wouldn't overwhelm network capacity. It's also "different" enough that there probably wouldn't be a lot of cross-shopping between brands and Tesla wouldn't have to worry about losing many sales to Aptera.

 

[designrs]

Elon has said that they are working with at least one manufacturer that will share the Tesla supercharger network. If you watch promotional videos for Aptera, you'll notice the Tesla charge port and several interior parts look like they are straight out of a Model 3.

Large volume manufacturers would be expected to contribute proportionally to the Supercharger network build-out. A small volume manufacturer such as Aptera wouldn't have to pay as much to join the Supercharger network and wouldn't overwhelm network capacity. It's also "different" enough that there probably wouldn't be a lot of cross-shopping between brands and Tesla wouldn't have to worry about losing many sales to Aptera.

Wow!That Aptera vehicle is pretty weird. It’s like a Tesla “trike-car.”

Aptera Motors

Aptera is the world’s first Solar Electric Vehicle that requires no charging for most daily use - giving you the freedom to do more with less impact on the planet.

www.aptera.us

 

[Feathermerchan]

Instead of paying to join the Tesla network of Superchargers, they should just pay a little more per use. That way the car company has no skin in it and the customer pays for the privilege.

 

[Merrill]

Instead of paying to join the Tesla network of Superchargers, they should just pay a little more per use. That way the car company has no skin in it and the customer pays for the privilege.

Unfortunately that would not work, if other manufacturers want to use the Tesla superchargers they would need to contribute to adding to the network otherwise they would become over crowded.

 

[Feathermerchan]

The surcharge could cover the expenses associated. The charges we pay cover the network and it's expansion. Tesla has said that the network would not be a profit center. That means to me that the payments cover the cost of operation and expansion but not profit to Tesla. Possibly a portion of the price of a new Tesla goes to the Supercharging network. That would have to be covered by the surcharge.

 

[miimura]

The surcharge could cover the expenses associated. The charges we pay cover the network and it's expansion. Tesla has said that the network would not be a profit center. That means to me that the payments cover the cost of operation and expansion but not profit to Tesla. Possibly a portion of the price of a new Tesla goes to the Supercharging network. That would have to be covered by the surcharge.

It would be simpler for Tesla to charge a fee per new vehicle granted access to the network to support network expansion. Then, the fee for charging would be the same as other Tesla vehicles. I think it would be reasonable to charge a new vehicle fee of $1,000 to $2,000 for Supercharger network access. Probably at the lower end if the manufacturer pays for every vehicle produced, but at the higher end if it is optional on a per vehicle basis.

 

[Feathermerchan]

Problem is we don't know what Tesla's Supercharger cost structure is so we can only speculate. I think Tesla should charge customers directly for the use of the network. Either or both a vehicle charge and/or use surcharge. So long as their vehicle is compatible it would open the network to all those who wanted to participate and I predict that the SC network would continue to be the largest. Maybe the Tesla interface would become the standard like the gasoline nozzle.

 

[FlatSix911]

Wow!That Aptera vehicle is pretty weird. It’s like a Tesla “trike-car.”

Aptera Motors

Aptera is the world’s first Solar Electric Vehicle that requires no charging for most daily use - giving you the freedom to do more with less impact on the planet.

www.aptera.us

Agreed, another weird mobile... it probably won't help to accelerate the adoption of EVs.

 

[designrs]

Agreed, another weird mobile... it probably won't help to accelerate the adoption of EVs.

Looks like a prototype for a flying car... Oh! Wait.

 

[Feathermerchan]

Yeah but 1,000 miles on a charge...