Electrify America now uses BTC Power exclusively for new installs.
ABB is terrible. The boards kept dropping dead and Electrify America couldn't get enough replacement boards.
SK Signet have power modules that kept failing.
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Electrify America general discussion
- Thread starter Mockingbird
- Start date
ABB is terrible. The boards kept dropping dead and Electrify America couldn't get enough replacement boards.
SK Signet have power modules that kept failing.
Back after a 5 month furlough?
It doesn't seem like the new BTC units are all that much better:
The most common reason for derated chargers is failed Huber+Suhner cables (often the temperature probe inside the cable).Back after a 5 month furlough?
It doesn't seem like the new BTC units are all that much better:
The cables are consumables and need to be replaced regularly.
That said, I do think that Electrify America needs to consider getting cables from another supplier (maybe Phoenix Contact)
Indeed. I've seen that many EA sites that had ABB have been been getting replaced by something else or their next gen units.
Pismo Beach Premium Outlets - Nike Factory Store | Pismo Beach, CA | EV Station - I charged here when it was ABB.
Gilroy Premium Outlets (3) | Gilroy, CA | EV Station - ditto
Walmart Supercenter | Santa Clarita, CA | EV Station - ditto
Walmart Supercenter | Salinas, CA | EV Station - I've only charged here after it was already upgraded to next gen.
I've definitely seen the tang/latch broken at many EA sites, sometimes repeatedly. I've usually called those into EA when I see it. I had a hypothesis about why in some cases and mentioned it to EA. Only they would know whether my guess holds water.
For Princeton Plaza Mall | San Jose, CA | EV Station, for example, it used to have BTC Power DC FCs (see old pics). The way that site is set up, w/the handles going into holsters on the front and the cables jutting out into the parking space, it's possible that cars in the way in/out are contacting the cables and then being pulled out of their holsters. That woud probably break the latch. The handle might also hit the pavement, possibly breaking the latch.
Bank of America | San Jose, CA | EV Station also used to have old BTC Power and the same setup. I've seen broken tangs at both sites numerous times.
Bank of America | San Jose, CA | EV Station are Signet "v2" and the holsters are on the side + are real nice the way the handles site inside the holes on the side. Also, the cable doesn't jut out as much. So, I'd guess this type would have fewer broken latches.
For the rest, I only have guesses as to why the tangs are getting broken. It could be dropping or clueless people. Some might be clueless thinking the plug is stuck to their car, so they use a lot of force, which would break the tang. And, others might actually be stuck due to a bug somewhere. Interview: Electrify America expects you to raise hell if chargers don’t work mentions one from long ago:
"Other bugs include miscommunication between the vehicle and the charger. E-tron drivers have been unable to remove the cord after the session is completed. (That problem was on the vehicle side. Audi separately told us that a software update will be deployed this week to solve the issue.)"
For air cooled cables, well, yeah, if the power output is much lower. I'm unfortunately unfamiliar with air cooled only CCS1 cables and handles that can handle 150 or 350 kW. Also, FWIW, EA is kinda goofy on how they came up with their "150 kW" designation. As I mentioned at Lucid Motors Air, I'd spotted a Lucid Air test vehicle in 2021 pulling 166 kW (on the charger's display) on a 150 kW unit. Was definitely an older BTC Power unit at Princeton Plaza Mall | San Jose, CA | EV Station.
The power output problem is frustrating. My Learnings From an EA Field Engineer - Important for... mentions:
"He also told me there are 3 temperature sensors at EA sites, one in the handle, one in the dispenser, and one at the inverter/power unit in the cabinets. These are prone to failure and cause de-rated speeds (20-30kW max) when they go bad."
The Signet surge/massive power level variation problem even affects 400 volt vehicles and CHAdeMO. I'll have to see if the reports of that at Bank of America | San Jose, CA | EV Station are visible in their app as their web site seem to not let you go back real far in reviews.
You're right about Nayax being the vendor. That's what I've seen too. Also, as https://insideevs.com/news/389891/exclusive-interview-electrify-america-problems-solutions/ mentions (search for card), there can be problems w/Nayax card readers specific to a given station vendor.
"For example, there have been problems with the Nayax credit card readers and after rounds of software revisions three of the four manufacturers appear to have the compatibility issue resolved (it's still in final validation) but one of the manufacturers hasn't managed to correct the problem yet. This happens all the time. When Electrify America identifies a problem, they need to work it out four times and that obviously causes these issues to take longer to resolve than they would if there were fewer equipment vendors."
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I thought they were now using a new version of the cables/connector that fixed that issue.
That doesn't explain why so many basically brand new installs are failing/de-rating.
EA doesn't have the ability to iterate the designs fast enough to to get to a reliable system. The primary reason Tesla has a reliable Supercharger system is that they developed the whole thing in house and they iterated the design to address all the reliability problems. The remaining maintenance items don't have cost effective solutions to increase the lifetime, so they just do the required maintenance to keep the stations running with minimal down time. It's not that they don't have failures like broken cables/contacts, vandalism, etc. They just get it fixed in a reasonable time and the stall count per site is high enough that there is not a meaningful impact to the network when a dispenser is down. The other thing that differentiates Tesla Supercharger service is that they empower the technicians by giving them parts in advance to get the station fixed in one visit. My understanding is the SOP for EA station repair always requires at least two truck rolls. That makes a huge difference in how long a station is down.
Electrify America is also having an issue getting replacement parts.
Some chargers are down for an extend period because the parts are on backorder.
bradtem
Robocar consultant
Many find this statement odd, but this is exactly what an EV charging station should not be. It's nice, and it's been designed as a place to wait. If you wait while charging, at least in the future, then something has gone wrong. For charging in your home town, you should be sleeping or working, not waiting. For charging on a road trip you should be sleeping, eating, shopping or visiting a tourist attraction or other destination. You should not be waiting. If you are waiting then your car was worse than a gasoline car, and it need never be worse.
So, since it doesn't seem like it would hurt to have a nicer station, why is this wrong? Because if you put your effort and money into the wrong things, you are not putting them into the right things, and you're having less charging or more expensive charging.
In 50,000 miles of EV driving including 20,000 miles of road trips, I have almost never waited to charge. Really. I've spent less time waiting than I did getting gasoline in the old days. Today, I can't do that perfectly, but that's the world we want to build. Today it takes more planning than it should to pull that off, more other compromises. Tomorrow it won't
Tesla is smarter. They built one or two fancy charging stations with lounges -- I've been to the one in California a couple of times -- and then they stopped.
So, since it doesn't seem like it would hurt to have a nicer station, why is this wrong? Because if you put your effort and money into the wrong things, you are not putting them into the right things, and you're having less charging or more expensive charging.
In 50,000 miles of EV driving including 20,000 miles of road trips, I have almost never waited to charge. Really. I've spent less time waiting than I did getting gasoline in the old days. Today, I can't do that perfectly, but that's the world we want to build. Today it takes more planning than it should to pull that off, more other compromises. Tomorrow it won't
Tesla is smarter. They built one or two fancy charging stations with lounges -- I've been to the one in California a couple of times -- and then they stopped.
brainhouston
Active Member
I mostly agree except that if u only need to top off for 10-15min to continue the trip, u don't really need to go anywhere or have time for it
what i want to see, is a decent bathroom by every charger (not just a honey bucket) n maybe a food cart or at least have it next to those
in some places it already is but some u have to walk kinda far..
putting chargers at rest areas would be ideal imho
what i want to see, is a decent bathroom by every charger (not just a honey bucket) n maybe a food cart or at least have it next to those
in some places it already is but some u have to walk kinda far..
putting chargers at rest areas would be ideal imho
gglockner
Member
There are 3 types of charging:
- Everyday Level 2 charging at home or work. There's no waiting per se, because the vehicle charges while you do something else.
- Fast Level 3 charging near home or work. This is the only option for people who cannot install a Level 2 charger at their home, like renters. This requires waiting for the vehicle to charge.
- Fast Level 3 charging for road trips. This is required for cross-country trips. This also requires waiting for the vehicle to charge.
bradtem
Robocar consultant
Except you don't need to wait in case #3 if the Level 3 charging is placed in reasonable proximity to places you already plan to stop for 25-40 minutes. Almost everybody stops to eat 2 times/day (breakfast is often at your hotel where you charged full.) People also usually stop to pee (but that can be a very short stop) and to shop for various travel things, and less predictably, you stop at things you wanted to visit -- tourist destinations, trailheads, etc.
If there's charging at the places you stop, you will stop for more than enough time to keep your car charged. In fact, for people driving less than 8 hours a day, only one stop is needed, at lunch, even if you are not stopping for any tourism or business or whatever reason you have for travel.
So today this isn't trivial. I do it, but it takes planning. When we get on the road, I figure where we'll need our first charge in 200 miles or so, and I look at the chargers there and in particular I look at what food is around them. (It would be nice if google maps were integrated with Tesla charger planning and it will be some day.) It's pretty rare there isn't something decent, and I eat there. When there is nothing I do plan B, which is I find good take-out on the way to a charger, order it ahead and pick it up. Then, if need be, I eat it using the table and chairs I carry on road trips, though ideally chargers should have picnic tables. Here is one instance where a lounge can be a nice thing to have, but I'm not simply waiting in the lounge, I am having my lunch.
If we realize how this works and put charging in the places people already stop for lunch and attractions, you never have to wait to charge. Even getting 4 minutes of charge when you do a pee break is not insignificant at level 3. Since you will pee at your lunch charge, you'll be down below 50% when most people next need a bathroom break, so you can grab 10kWh in each pee break which is not nothing.
gtae07
Member
I mostly lean this way, as our "road trips" are typically a maximum of six hours from home and usually closer to four. I want a bathroom right there and decent fast food options within a short walk (if we need to stop for food, which we often don't, it has to be quick and not a sit-down place). By having the food within walking distance you can plug in, order on the app, walk over and get it, then come back about the time the charge is done. If you have to pick it up separately you're wasting time. Having the bathroom very close is important when it's raining--I don't mind a walk at all, but slogging across a big parking lot to get to the store with a bathroom (like the Macon, GA charger at exit 169) kinda sucks.
The supercharger near our house is actually a great setup in that regard--it's places at a local gas station chain that's known for clean bathrooms and surprisingly decent food (think mini version of a Wawa, or a micro-Bucee's), and has other food and coffee options within easy walking distance.
I also wish charger banks had awnings over them like gas stations do over the pumps...
Clearly, the definition of a "road trip" varies between people and, as such, I suspect what is needed or desired for charging varies as well.
A 4-6 hour trip generally only requires about 1 charging stop, maybe 2. Wasting 10 or 15 minutes at that one charging stop for this is a lot different than a full day or multiple day trip that may require 4 or 5 stops per day and that wasted 10 or 15 minutes if not spent doing useful things, can add up to 40 to 75 minutes wasted each day.
For the short ~4-6 hour trips, I often try to time it so that I catch a meal during that charging stop. A quick fast-food breakfast close-by is a good option. Example: I'll target the Firebaugh Supercharger with a MacDonalds or Kettleman City for a breakfast burrito versus Harris Ranch along I-5 in CA because of the quick, nearby acceptable breakfasts at Firebaugh or Kettleman. Likewise, for the same trip, if the charging stop is timed around lunch or dinner, the barbecue at Harris Ranch or In-n-Out at Kettleman mean I'll target them.
I can't (or shouldn't) eat 4 or 5 times per day so, for longer trips, while a bathroom is always key, malls, nearby parks or nice neighborhoods are always good for a short walk to get a little exercise (Malls can be particularly nice in extreme winter cold and summer heat and many are open late in the evening).
Other than a bathroom, there is little at most rest areas that I find appealing. Vending machine food doesn't excite me, there's seldom anywhere to walk, and any indoor (heated or air conditioned) space is rare or very small. At best, there's just a shady picnic table and a place to stretch my legs and walk the dog.
I also see that they tend to be shut down about as often as they are open, especially in winter, so one cannot plan on them being available to charge.
bradtem
Robocar consultant
Yes, restroom chargers are just to get what you can get in the 3-4 minutes of a pee break. No real desire to hang out in a rest stop. On the other hand, when you do pee, why not pick up 25 miles of charge? Dependng on how often you need to do this, and there's usually somebody in the car that wants it after 2 hours, that can add up, and it gives you the ability to pick you main (food) charge a bit further down the road, or take a detour. The nice thing about rest stops is you don't need too many chargers as people should be leaving them fast -- in fact I could even see putting a 5 minute maximum on these chargers. But you don't depend on them, so if they are full you pee and move on.
Of course that means you had better have supercharger-like plug and pee. I hope that becomes the norm as the world moves to NACS. No way I am fiddling with apps and cards on a 3 minute stop.
Unfortunately, pretty much all of the rest stop chargers I've seen are at closed rest stops, max out at 55 KW, and are either out-of-order or the single one is occupied but a Bolt driven by a retiree who's happy to sit somewhere, reading a book for 2 hours slowly charging all the way because it is free.
Clearly, this probably could be technical solved.
However, all the rest stop chargers I've seen are put in through well-intentioned but naively planned government programs managed by folks who wouldn't know a kilowatt from a kilometer and purely for the purpose of a photo op for an elected official who gets chauffeured everywhere they go in a motorcade consisting of 3 armored suburbans that get about 3 mpg each.
It will probably be a long time before this problem gets solved. I'm not going to wait - which gets us back on-topic to Electrify America which seems to be focusing on Walmarts, Targets, and grocery stores which are fairly good, but not perfect, places to charge, at least in remote areas. If only they would work more often.
rhumbliner
Member
If a 6 hour trip requires 1 charging stop “wasting” 10 or 15 minutes then a full day trip that requires 4 to 5 stops comes out to a 24-30 hour day. Help me out with your math here. How do you cram that many hours into 1 day? When do you sleep?
For me, personally, after driving 6 hours I’m thankful for a 15 minute pee break and don’t consider it wasted time at all.
First of all, you need to drive, not just meander about. I find a good day is 800 - 900 miles per day. Let's take Bend, OR to Los Angeles. Run through the Tesla planner and starting at full charge, leaving Bend at 6:00 am:
- Mount Shasta, CA, arr at 21% at 9:39 am, charge for 29 min
- Dunnigan, CA, arr at 18% at 1:02 pm, charge for 25 min
- Gustine, CA, arr at 16% at 3:44 pm, charge for 20 min
- Lost Hills, CA arr at 16% at 6:01 pm, charge for 20 min
- Arrive Los Angeles at 11% at 8:40 pm
total distance; 823.9 miles
How does 20:40 - 6:00 = 24 to 30 hours?
easy: an earth day has 24 hours - 8 hours to sleep = 16 hours. 20:40 - 6:00 = 14:40 I ate my meals and emptied my bladder at the rest stops. This, hopefully answers:
Those 20 - 29 minute charging stops every 3 - 4 hours gives plenty of pee breaks without ever getting to a 6 hour iron-bladder moment or need for astronaut diapers. You also could have made quick stops if needed as well, possibly having shorter charging time, more frequent stops.
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If he wasn't trying to youtube it, he probably could have done more. Back in 2019, I drove round trip between Tidewater, VA and Los Angeles, CA in 3 days each way (new M3LR). My longest day was 1100 miles. I got back to LA in time for a 5:00 meeting near LAX. . . . and that was before I-40 was fully covered with Supercharging so I had to divert nearly to Dallas. There were also no V3 Superchargers at that time.
I will admit that I was mostly proving It could be done, not that it should be done. This experience shuts down macho ICE drivers who claim EVs won't work for road-trips.
Note that I haven't done it again with the new, luxurious Supercharging infrastructure
I carefully used a "splash-and-dash" protocol (arrive at low SoC, charge only as much as charging was fast and needed to get to next SC) and it was in the late spring so I didn't need any climate control. Meals in and out at Supercharging stops. Hotels with destination chargers overnight. Maybe not a full 8 hours of sleep each night though.
I did worse things back in my misguided ICE-driving youth though.
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