Elon Tweet: No 'significantly new consumer-facing technology' in Model 3

[AnxietyRanger]

M3 = BMW

Model 3 = Tesla

Ok thanks. I'll remember that in the "tesla" forum.

I thought folks would be able to make that connection on their own in a tesla forum.

I was just having a bit of fun.

However, a serious comment if anyone cares:

IMO just because we are able doesn't mean we should. M3 has a very much established meaning in automotive world, even this particular thread discusses M3 in the BMW sense a few posts above. The M3 is also considered a serious competitor to the (future) Performance Model 3.

Even Elon has said so himself, avoid misleading acronyms (his SpaceX memo). M3 is the BMW M3. Model 3 is Model 3. If one has to abbreviate, I would personally make sure the shorthand is not such a loaded label. Maybe just call it 3, for example.

The S vs. the 3 would be quite understandable in a Tesla context (just don't call it the 3 Series). MS vs. M3 can realistically refer to BMW M3.

Personally I dislike the MS acronym too because MS is Microsoft, but that is non-automotive so I'll chalk that up as a software-guy thing. But M3 is cars and in any other meaning than BMW it is just wrong, it is like rounding up in drag racing.

The name M3 is also a petrolhead legend. Let Model 3 make its own name for itself.

S, 3, X. Simple. Short. Sharp.

 

[182RG]

Lastly...concerning Elons tweets.

His latest tweets have alarmed me in more than one way.

1st of all.....

2ndly......

3rdly......

4thly.....

5thly.....

Simple. The expectation was set that the Model 3 was 20% smaller than the Model S, yet 50% cheaper at the base.

People believed that they could "option up" a Model 3 that was going to be faster, with more range, and the same capabilities and appointments as the Model S...for the same $ as a base Model S. Speculation was rampant. I felt this way. Why would I buy an Model S, when I can buy a $70K Model 3?

My guess is they were canabalizing/Osborne'ing the Model S, and a drop off in demand was showing. I don't think margins on the Model 3 are going to be that good, for a while.

EM did the right thing, by reining in speculation and culling the herd. Now..he was the source of most of it by Tweet-storm, vague word choices (deliberate), etc.

There are real doubts about how fast, and how much production can be ramped up. I'm very skeptical.

Frankly, I think I'm going to step out of line. I'm pretty compelled by the 2018 Volvo XC60. You know, the one you can actually see pictures of, and specs on, that has real technology employed. Pilot Assist 2 (Mobileye) is pretty compelling. Speed isn't my thing, technology is. I would have liked a Q5 / X3 sized CUV, ala the Model Y. (minus the ridiculous FWDs). I really don't care that much about ICE vs EV, or the "Mission". I don't spend much time thinking about fossil fuels and polar bears.

Maybe in 2019 or 2020, I'll pick up a CPO 2015 or 2016 Model S. Maybe they'll have HW2 EAP worked out by then. FSD is a fantasy. These cars will be in the scrap yard before anything meaningful is developed and certified.

Good luck.

 

[Wolverinegeoff]

Oh well..... enjoy your base models.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Simple. The expectation was set that the Model 3 was 20% smaller than the Model S, yet 50% cheaper at the base.

People believed that they could "option up" a Model 3 that was going to be faster, with more range, and the same capabilities and appointments as the Model S...for the same $ as a base Model S. Speculation was rampant. I felt this way. Why would I buy an Model S, when I can buy a $70K Model 3?

My guess is they were canabalizing/Osborne'ing the Model S, and a drop off in demand was showing. I don't think margins on the Model 3 are going to be that good, for a while.

EM did the right thing, by reining in speculation and culling the herd. Now..he was the source of most of it by Tweet-storm, vague word choices (deliberate), etc.

There are real doubts about how fast, and how much production can be ramped up. I'm very skeptical.

Frankly, I think I'm going to step out of line. I'm pretty compelled by the 2018 Volvo XC60. You know, the one you can actually see pictures of, and specs on, that has real technology employed. Pilot Assist 2 (Mobileye) is pretty compelling. Speed isn't my thing, technology is. I would have liked a Q5 / X3 sized CUV, ala the Model Y. (minus the ridiculous FWDs). I really don't care that much about ICE vs EV, or the "Mission". I don't spend much time thinking about fossil fuels and polar bears.

Maybe in 2019 or 2020, I'll pick up a CPO 2015 or 2016 Model S. Maybe they'll have HW2 EAP worked out by then. FSD is a fantasy. These cars will be in the scrap yard before anything meaningful is developed and certified.

Good luck.

Good luck to you as well. I understand your viewpoint and support it.

 

[zenmaster]

Simple. The expectation was set that the Model 3 was 20% smaller than the Model S, yet 50% cheaper at the base.

People believed that they could "option up" a Model 3 that was going to be faster, with more range, and the same capabilities and appointments as the Model S...for the same $ as a base Model S. Speculation was rampant. I felt this way. Why would I buy an Model S, when I can buy a $70K Model 3?

I was thinking the same thing too regarding optioning up. Apparently, that is not in the cards for this platform.

Maybe in 2019 or 2020, I'll pickup a CPO 2015 or 2016 Model S. Maybe they'll have EAP worked out by then. FSD is a fantasy. These cars will be in the scrap yard before anything meaningful is developed and certified.

Actually, "FSD" per the spec is very narrowly defined making it a lot more straightforward to implement. Depending on points A and B, "level 5" really doesn't mean the car can reliably function with "common sense" without a driver, but rather won't cause an accident. The terms "Full Self Driving" and "Full Autonomy" are based on that narrow spec, not on mass assumptions on what functions the car should be able to perform on its own. These assumptions are still not in line with reality because it's simply unnecessary to provide clarification on meaning at this point.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

People believed that they could "option up" a Model 3 that was going to be faster, with more range, and the same capabilities and appointments as the Model S...for the same $ as a base Model S. Speculation was rampant. I felt this way. Why would I buy an Model S, when I can buy a $70K Model 3?

It was not completely unrealistic a thought, being faster that is (I don't think anyone expected exactly the same appointments). The less heavy smaller cars can be quicker than their heavier, more expensive luxo-barge brethen. The next Roadster is said to be quicker than the Model S, either they will put in more batteries than a Model 3 or make it much lighter. Somehow they expect to manage that. Though M5 is quicker than M3, but the S is larger than M5, while 3 is likely around the size of M3...

What is different compared to M3/M5 is probably the battery weight difference. The 3 will likely weigh more than the M3 and not that much less than an S.

The weight difference between an M3 and M5 is around 500 kilograms - quite significant. The weight difference between a 75 kWh Tesla battery and a 100 kWh is probably only 200 kg, though of course other parts of Model 3 will be lighter as well (and new cells can help), but not performance bits... So it is possible the AWD 3 is closer to AWD S weight than M3 is to the M5 weight. And unlike BMW M3, in the case of the Model 3 any loss of weight in battery also means less power output, it is of course not as simple in the ICE equation.

Interesting to see how Tesla will tackle the performance vs. weight question. But IMO while it makes sense that Model 3 will not be as fast, it is also not completely unrealistic to conclude perhaps they could make it faster if they wanted to (see Roadster).

 

[eye.surgeon]

Let me paraphrase Musk's recent tweets:

Here is a video of the model 3. You don't want this POS. Buy the model S! If you must have the model 3, it will be basic. It will be delivered in a tent.

Hey, my Model S was delivered in a tent.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

We now understand why the Model 3 delivery is planned to take only 5 minutes. They will drop this terrible car off somewhere remote for you and drive away as quickly as possible in a getaway car.

Warranty as long as you see the delivery specialist's taillights!

 

[AnxietyRanger]

^ Two disagrees already. I guess my joke was too much too soon.

 

[tomas]

We now understand why the Model 3 delivery is planned to take only 5 minutes. They will drop this terribly awesome car off for you and give you access to online tutorials which you can view on car's screen.

LMFTFY

 

[montreid]

AnxietyRanger - Elon does hold the 0-60 <6sec performance standard still. That's plenty fast for the vast majority and outperforms the BMW 3 series base to base comparisons. We just don't know what the Performance and also larger batteries and ludicrous modes would be -- all still speculation and probably will remain for the balance of the year based on his tweets.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

LMFTFY

It was attempted humor at Elon downplaying the Model 3. I guess it didn't reach its audience. Oh well.

 

[Garlan Garner]

AnxietyRanger - Elon does hold the 0-60 <6sec performance standard still. That's plenty fast for the vast majority and outperforms the BMW 3 series base to base comparisons. We just don't know what the Performance and also larger batteries and ludicrous modes would be -- all still speculation and probably will remain for the balance of the year based on his tweets.

I agree with you. I absolutely hate all of the secret Tesla information. I don't understand why.

As a matter of fact....we wouldn't know anything about the recent model 3 information except that Elon supposedly stayed up and started tweeting. Tesla obviously had this information, but they weren't telling anyone. Some of this information is necessary for customers ( regular people ) to make financial decisions in their lives. Billionaires don't have this problem. Tesla needs some regular people on their team that thinks like regular people.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

AnxietyRanger - Elon does hold the 0-60 <6sec performance standard still. That's plenty fast for the vast majority and outperforms the BMW 3 series base to base comparisons. We just don't know what the Performance and also larger batteries and ludicrous modes would be -- all still speculation and probably will remain for the balance of the year based on his tweets.

Sure, I expect Model 3 to be quicker than M3.

I was more making the relative comparison between M3 and M5 vs. 3 and S and other smaller cars vs. large barges. It is true that in the case of sedans the smaller performance versions, while often more agile, may be slower than their larger brothers. In that sense what Tesla is doing is not at all unheard of.

That said, many lighter smaller cars in manufacturers line-ups can be faster than the performance luxo-barges. So it was not completely unrealistic that Tesla - who is breaking every rule in the book anyway and does not seem to be building a very traditional line-up - would have simply made Model 3 as fast as possible and sold that version at a suitable premium.

I mean, if Tesla could make Model 3 the fastest production car in history or whatever, do you not think it would be great marketing to do so... Just slap a $75,000 premium on that version or something.

Perhaps they could simply not make it fast enough with its weight and smaller battery? Maybe it simply is not an optimal platform for that...

 

[melindav]

we wouldn't know anything about the recent model 3 information except that Elon supposedly stayed up and started tweeting.

it was 7am yesterday while he was on a plane... not to say that he didn't stay up the night before, but it's not like this all happened at 230am.

 

[Garlan Garner]

it was 7am yesterday while he was on a plane... not to say that he didn't stay up the night before, but it's not like this all happened at 230am.

I don't want my point to get lost.

The announcement wasn't an official Tesla announcement. Elon was just tweeting. Tesla obviously knew this already.

Question is: Why would a company keep this kind of information from its customers? What advantage is it to Tesla?

 

[Wolverinegeoff]

Perhaps they could simply not make it fast enough with its weight and smaller battery?

Aren't they supposedly building next roadster on Model 3 platform? I wonder if that means it's still a max of 75kwh battery due to the wheelbase. They'd have to just use much lighter materials and probably make it a smaller body somehow.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Aren't they supposedly building next roadster on Model 3 platform? I wonder if that means it's still a max of 75kwh battery due to the wheelbase. They'd have to just use much lighter materials and probably make it a smaller body somehow.

They are supposedly building a Model 3 on the Model 3 platform.....however.......

 

[ohmman]

Aren't they supposedly building next roadster on Model 3 platform? I wonder if that means it's still a max of 75kwh battery due to the wheelbase. They'd have to just use much lighter materials and probably make it a smaller body somehow.

There is no new Roadster in the roadmap. Elon said he'd love to do it one day, but it's not in the foreseeable future. That was at the Gigafactory event.

 

[melindav]

I don't want my point to get lost.

The announcement wasn't an official Tesla announcement. Elon was just tweeting. Tesla obviously knew this already.

Question is: Why would a company keep this kind of information from its customers? What advantage is it to Tesla?

well, it did blow up all the tesla forums/websites yesterday, so doesn't look like they are keeping it from customers.