Enhanced Summon, where are you?

[diplomat33]

I'm gonna guess that it is still 6 months away and will likely require the new hardware suite to actually work.

I don't think we will need AP3 for Enhanced Summon to work. But I do think the Enhanced Summon we get on AP3 will be much better. My guess is that the Enhanced Summon we get on AP2 will work but be a bit slow. But the Enhanced Summon on AP3 will be more FSD. It will be smoother and be able to handle more situations because it will use the more advanced AP3 vision neural nets.

Exactly. It’s unusable in its current beta form. If it releases in its current form, no one will believe FSD is a year away

Again, the software we are getting now on AP2 is not the best of the best FSD that Tesla has in development. We know AP2 can't handle the bigger neural nets that Tesla has developed for FSD. So judging FSD based on whatever Enhanced Summon we get on AP2, is not really fair. We know from the test drives and demo that Tesla has much better FSD software running on AP3. Once we get that, then we can make a judgement of how close or far Tesla is on FSD.

I'm generally very positive/optimistic about Tesla Autopilot/FSD. However - even I tend to think that FSD (equal to what we saw in Tesla's own video) is more than year away! I think we'll get a sprinkling of it by late this year or early 2020 but I don't think we'll see anything close to what was in their video until 2021.

I guess I am more hopeful/optimistic than you. Tesla already has the alpha software now since we saw the test drives and demo. Sure, it will take time for Tesla to test the software and get it ready for full public release but I doubt that it would take 3 years.

 

[turnem]

I don't think we will need AP3 for Enhanced Summon to work. But I do think the Enhanced Summon we get on AP3 will be much better. My guess is that the Enhanced Summon we get on AP2 will work but be a bit slow. But the Enhanced Summon on AP3 will be more FSD. It will be smoother and be able to handle more situations because it will use the more advanced AP3 vision neural nets.



Again, the software we are getting now on AP2 is not the best of the best FSD that Tesla has in development. We know AP2 can't handle the bigger neural nets that Tesla has developed for FSD. So judging FSD based on whatever Enhanced Summon we get on AP2, is not really fair. We know from the test drives and demo that Tesla has much better FSD software running on AP3. Once we get that, then we can make a judgement of how close or far Tesla is on FSD.



I guess I am more hopeful/optimistic than you. Tesla already has the alpha software now since we saw the test drives and demo. Sure, it will take time for Tesla to test the software and get it ready for full public release but I doubt that it would take 3 years.

I'm fairly new to Tesla so forgive the noobie question here but...

It sounds like you are saying that the software that's currently running on our cars is materially different from what they plan to run when they roll out FSD? If I read that right... what are the big differences? Will the new software utilize deeper machine learning or is it just that the hardware (HW3/FSD) is more capable of processing more data thereby making the car more capable in autopilot/FSD functionality? Or both?

 

[diplomat33]

I'm fairly new to Tesla so forgive the noobie question here but...

It sounds like you are saying that the software that's currently running on our cars is materially different from what they plan to run when they roll out FSD? If I read that right... what are the big differences? Will the new software utilize deeper machine learning or is it just that the hardware (HW3/FSD) is more capable of processing more data thereby making the car more capable in autopilot/FSD functionality? Or both?

A bit of both. Basically, Tesla has developed better neural nets for FSD awhile back but those neural nets can't run on the AP2 computer. They require the AP3 computer.

Here is what Karpathy said during the Q3 conference call last year:

Andrej Karpathy -- Director of AI & Autopilot Vision

Yeah, certainly. Hi, everyone. My name is Andrej Karpathy. I'm the Director of AI here at Tesla. And my team trends all the neural networks that analyze the images streaming in from all the cameras for the Autopilot. For example, these neural networks identify cars, lane lines, traffic signs and so on. The team is incredibly excited about the upcoming upgrade for the Autopilot computer, which Pete briefly talked about. This upgrade allows us to not just run the current neural networks faster, but more importantly, it will allow us to deploy much larger computationally more expensive networks to the fleet.

The reason this is important is that it is a common finding in the industry and that we see this as well is that as you make the networks bigger by adding more neurons, the accuracy of all their predictions increases with the added capacity. So, in other words, we are currently at a place where we've trained large neural networks data work very well, but we are not able to deploy them to the fleet due to computational constraints. So all of this will change with an acceleration of the hardware and it's a massive step improvement in the compute capability and the team is incredibly excited to get these networks out there.
Tesla Motors Inc (TSLA) Q3 2018 Earnings Conference Call Transcript -- The Motley Fool

 

[croman]

Tesla is so shady for listing this feature as available and has been for months. Not shadier than their usual years long lies regarding FSD.

 

[turnem]

A bit of both. Basically, Tesla has developed better neural nets for FSD awhile back but those neural nets can't run on the AP2 computer. They require the AP3 computer.

Here is what Karpathy said during the Q3 conference call last year:

Andrej Karpathy -- Director of AI & Autopilot Vision

Yeah, certainly. Hi, everyone. My name is Andrej Karpathy. I'm the Director of AI here at Tesla. And my team trends all the neural networks that analyze the images streaming in from all the cameras for the Autopilot. For example, these neural networks identify cars, lane lines, traffic signs and so on. The team is incredibly excited about the upcoming upgrade for the Autopilot computer, which Pete briefly talked about. This upgrade allows us to not just run the current neural networks faster, but more importantly, it will allow us to deploy much larger computationally more expensive networks to the fleet.

The reason this is important is that it is a common finding in the industry and that we see this as well is that as you make the networks bigger by adding more neurons, the accuracy of all their predictions increases with the added capacity. So, in other words, we are currently at a place where we've trained large neural networks data work very well, but we are not able to deploy them to the fleet due to computational constraints. So all of this will change with an acceleration of the hardware and it's a massive step improvement in the compute capability and the team is incredibly excited to get these networks out there.
Tesla Motors Inc (TSLA) Q3 2018 Earnings Conference Call Transcript -- The Motley Fool

Thanks! That's very helpful.

 

[TMeister]

I don't think we will need AP3 for Enhanced Summon to work. But I do think the Enhanced Summon we get on AP3 will be much better. My guess is that the Enhanced Summon we get on AP2 will work but be a bit slow. But the Enhanced Summon on AP3 will be more FSD. It will be smoother and be able to handle more situations because it will use the more advanced AP3 vision neural nets.

"Work" and "much better" are very subjective. I wouldn't want something to just "work" for me to rely on it. Kinda like the AT&T commercials airing now about just being OK. OK is not good enough.

Don't forget that the AP3 hardware and it's NN are only one part of a FSD solution. The NN does not drive the car, it id's the elements and predictions to the logic that decides what to do. At least that's my understanding. The NN output is NOT things like steer xx degrees left or apply yy% more throttle. It is, the object at x,y is a person/car/sign/bicycle that is moving in a described way. It identifies the driveable path but doesn't drive the path. Is this wrong?

So my conclusion is that AP2(.5) does not have the compute power to decide what to do. AP3 is a development to improve NN processing. I gotta listen again to the April presentation to see if someone really said how they improved logic processing. But my recollection is that the logic of how to drive the car was an afterthought.

 

[timewasted]

Tesla is so shady for listing this feature as available and has been for months. Not shadier than their usual years long lies regarding FSD.

And their fanatics still don’t give a s*it as long as Elon tweets out “almost ready guys, should be next week!” every couple of months.

 

[diplomat33]

"Work" and "much better" are very subjective. I wouldn't want something to just "work" for me to rely on it. Kinda like the AT&T commercials airing now about just being OK. OK is not good enough.

Fair point.

Don't forget that the AP3 hardware and it's NN are only one part of a FSD solution. The NN does not drive the car, it id's the elements and predictions to the logic that decides what to do. At least that's my understanding. The NN output is NOT things like steer xx degrees left or apply yy% more throttle. It is, the object at x,y is a person/car/sign/bicycle that is moving in a described way. It identifies the driveable path but doesn't drive the path. Is this wrong?

I think that is essentially correct, yes. That is my understanding as well. In the Autonomy Investor Day presentation, Karpathy mentions that the neural net is trained in object detection (ie cars, pedestrians, trucks, animals, etc), data labeling (debris on road, construction cones etc), behavior of objects such as cars cutting in front of you, and path prediction, including labeling driveable path say through an intersection. So presumably, there are other controls that actually execute the specific steering actions and acceleration/decelerations based on the output from the NN.

Having said that, we should not underestimate the importance of what the NN does, even if it is does not do everything in FSD. All those things that Karpathy mentions (object detection, data labeling, path prediction etc) are critical prerequisites for FSD. Without them, you can never hope to ever achieve self-driving. And AP3 will undoubtedly improve all those things by allowing for better NN and faster computing. Having better object detection, more complete data labeling, better path prediction etc will definitely help with FSD.

 

[diplomat33]

And their fanatics still don’t give a s*it as long as Elon tweets out “almost ready guys, should be next week!” every couple of months.

Of course we care. But the idea that we should be dismissive or even angry when Tesla does deliver something good like a new feature because Tesla's marketing is bad, is a bit silly. It is possible to advocate for better marketing practices and at the same time, be happy when Tesla delivers the goods. I mean, are we supposed to refuse the enhanced summon update when it comes out to protest that Tesla sold enhanced summon before it was actually available?

 

[croman]

They have a goal to replace most of the AP software stack with what AK calls software 2.0 but vehicle control is definitely not part of the NN recode currently.

Tesla is very very behind on driving policy. They'll drive on the wrong side of the street and won't care. Try it next time you are passing someone and you use the AS indicator come on the wrong Lane going the wrong direction. Not exactly L3 capability. Or how it wants to drive in shoulders while in NoA. HD maps might be a crutch but Tesla needs crutches like my mom needs lasers shooting out from her eyes.

 

[diplomat33]

HD maps might be a crutch but Tesla needs crutches like my mom needs lasers shooting out from her eyes.

So are you saying your mom needs lasers shooting out from her eyes?

 

[croman]

So are you saying your mom needs lasers shooting out from her eyes?

Yes, to see the obvious. Apparently she's not the only one... ;D

 

[SOULPEDL]

Elon tweeted that Enhanced Summon is "almost ready" and that he tested it personally yesterday.
Tesla's Advanced Summon update is almost ready for release, says Elon Musk

Of course, there could be more delays but it does look like we are getting closer. I am actually really looking forward to Enhanced Summon because it appears to be a significant improvement over the old summon. Also, I am hoping that the public release of enhanced summon will be better than what we saw from the early access videos. After all, Tesla gave themselves more time to refine the feature. So hopefully, we will get a pretty cool new feature in enhanced summon. Lastly, enhanced summon seems to be an incremental but significant step towards the car being able to autonomously drop us off and pick us up.

Quoting his comment on the speed (and I've read it elsewhere weeks ago)

"Also, smoother steering and a quicker commute to the summoning driver than what was demonstrated in the beta testing version are anticipated."​

More than a cool trick, this is FSD bait and free marketing at it's best. I still freak people out every time by just having it move 40ft. Have one drive off to the front door... Kray! Is ANYONE ELSE doing this? Literally every car commercial talks about basic steering and braking. It is clear to me the technologies are diverging, us and them.

Heck, my intuition says parking lots are more complex and random than the streets... in slow-motion. This will be good avoidance practice for the little guy. I suspect we'll have to rescue a few because the parking maps were not current (construction). Comes with the territory.

 

[dgatwood]

I'm just hoping that when they merge all those branches, it results in the new (read "working") browser coming to MCU1. I'm tired of seeing a white screen where the release notes are supposed to be, followed by the whole MCU rebooting (reliably) if I leave it on that screen for half an hour.

 

[BOBTHEJOCKEY]

Quoting his comment on the speed (and I've read it elsewhere weeks ago)

"Also, smoother steering and a quicker commute to the summoning driver than what was demonstrated in the beta testing version are anticipated."​

More than a cool trick, this is FSD bait and free marketing at it's best. I still freak people out every time by just having it move 40ft. Have one drive off to the front door... Kray! Is ANYONE ELSE doing this? Literally every car commercial talks about basic steering and braking. It is clear to me the technologies are diverging, us and them.

Heck, my intuition says parking lots are more complex and random than the streets... in slow-motion. This will be good avoidance practice for the little guy. I suspect we'll have to rescue a few because the parking maps were not current (construction). Comes with the territory.

Just keep increasing the distance for enhanced summons. You can just KREEP into FSD.

 

[willow_hiller]

Enhanced summon is allowed in parking lots because they're private property, right?

How long until we start seeing "No autonomous vehicles allowed" signs from luddite shopping center owners?

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

This debate is funny. The capabilities promised in what is now called "advanced summon" were the same capabilities promised with AP1 back in 2015. Of course this never arrived. Those who believe that advanced summon is right around the corner don't understand the history of Tesla and unkept promises.

Will advanced summon arrive for AP2/2.5/3? Probably at some point. But to believe it is coming within any particular timeframe is delusional.

 

[diplomat33]

This debate is funny. The capabilities promised in what is now called "advanced summon" were the same capabilities promised with AP1 back in 2015. Of course this never arrived. Those who believe that advanced summon is right around the corner don't understand the history of Tesla and unkept promises.

Will advanced summon arrive for AP2/2.5/3? Probably at some point. But to believe it is coming within any particular timeframe is delusional.

I get your skepticism coming from AP1. But there is a big difference. AP1 had basic hardware. AP2/3 has much better hardware and Tesla has now developed better software on AP2/3.

The other big difference is that Enhanced Summon was never in development for AP1. It was a future promise made in a presentation. Enhanced Summon is actually in development now, and we have early access videos of Enhanced Summon working on AP2 cars to prove it.

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

I get your skepticism coming from AP1. But there is a big difference. AP1 had basic hardware. AP2/3 has much better hardware and Tesla has now developed better software on AP2/3.

The other big difference is that Enhanced Summon was never in development for AP1. It was a future promise made in a presentation. Enhanced Summon is actually in development now, and we have early access videos of Enhanced Summon working on AP2 cars to prove it.

That's not true. It was sold on their website as part of autopilot. I put down good money for this feature and it was never delivered.

[edit]
This is from teslamotors.com on May 3, 2015. While the text "pull out of the garage and meet you at the curb" is somewhat ambiguous, the graphic unquestionably relays the intent.

 

[diplomat33]

That's not true. It was sold on their website as part of autopilot. I put down good money for this feature and it was never delivered.

[edit]
This is from teslamotors.com on May 3, 2015. While the text "pull out of the garage and meet you at the curb" is somewhat ambiguous, the graphic unquestionably relays the intent.
View attachment 410541

And you realize that is not at all what Enhanced Summon is, right? That graphic shows the car pulling around in front of your house. Enhanced Summon is summon from the other side of a parking lot. And eventually, Enhanced Summon will eventually summon your car from across town when the rest of FSD is done. So no, Tesla never sold Enhanced Summon for AP1. They sold a slightly more advanced version of Summon where the car could turn around a curb in front of your house. And Tesla did not deliver that feature because they broke up with MobilEye and moved on to AP2 before they could implement it. But that feature on the website has nothing to do with the current Enhanced Summon. And again, we have videos showing that Enhanced Summon is in development so we know it is coming.