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EU Market Situation and Outlook

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Talking to potential customers in Switzerland it is indeed the huge size of the car that is limiting sales potential the most, just as much as for Panameras and the like. Until recently also the lack of 4WD was often mentioned (going uphill on snow). Considering this, sales in that segment are very good. Another factor is that, right from the start with the Roadster, sales and services were managed very professionally by an unusually competent team.
Perhaps the general preference for powerful cars (mountainous), short distances and speed limits of at the most 120 Km/h on motorways, have their share. Also electricity and power points are not hard to come by.

Switzerland is often considered as a test market for new car models. Fleet sales are not prevalent (as in Germany) and there is no local car industry to cuddle. As purchases are also not subsidized, the current sales level in the very large car segment could be an unsubsidized number to aim at.

But about our car taxation: sales tax is 19%, no matter what kind of car.
But vehicle tax depends heavily on engine size (and therefor fuel consumption/CO2 emissions), meaning that fuel efficient cars with small engines pay far less than gas guzzlers (and Diesels as well by the way, but that is because Diesel itself is taxed quite a bit lower than gasoline).
BEVs don't pay any car tax for ten years (reduced to five years for cars purchased and registered from 2016 onwards - bad idea imho, they should at least stick to the ten year exemption, it's the only subsidy we get for BEVs here).

Problem over here is, Model S is priced as a luxury car. And the vast majority of those cars here are not private cars but fleet/corporate sales. As matbl said, large discounts for such cars are very common here, and even for private purchases, people expect to get discounts of at least 10 percent, with some models discounts can go as high as 30% and above, especially on foreign and less popular models. As Tesla isn't willing to negotiate on the price, they will keep having a hard time for now.

Plus, even if one is in the market for a BEV, remember that there are German built alternatives like the i3 or the e-Golf, which are far more affordable, have negotiable prices, and offer stuff Model S doesn't.

I sure hope to see more Model S around, but from what I can see in Frankfurt at the moment, they are not getting more common. I keep looking out for them, but other than test drive cars there aren't many to be seen. Perhaps one a week. Actually there were more around in the months before Christmas than there are now. But perhaps the P85D will really change some things.

+1 on the size argument. It is definitely too large for European tastes/roads/cities/parking garages etc.

But more important is price. One shouldn't set to much hope on the P85D in Germany either. Even naked withouth options its 106K Euro at the moment. The market for such expensive cars is extremely small anyway. Factor in the "never heard of Tesla" factor, plus the general anti-American-car sentiment and the "not really popular BEV" argument and you arrive at quite a lot of question marks for Tesla over here.

Oh and no, we seem to be less sensitive to petrol prices than to car prices, especially now that petrol prices have dropped quite a bit in the last few months due to low oil price (even if you factor on the big drop in the value of the Euro).

Really great informative insight into various markets. It seems to me that 'one size fits all' will not cut it for Tesla in overseas markets. Each market might require tailor-made approach and more customized car in order to win more market share.
 
Others will take more convincing. I know Europeans think it is crazy to leave your stuff out in the open in a pick up bed but there are many solutions.


top_maroon_truck.jpg

The problem with hardtops on pick ups is you can't fit stuff like 8x4 sheets of plywood or plasterboard in any of the UK sized trucks. Making matters worse many don't have opening rear windows so long lengths of pipe have to either stick out the back, or go on roof racks.

The 2 door pickups with the longer beds tend to be poverty spec here, and are generally bought by large companies as fleet vehicles. A small business owner would want a 4 door luxury one, as it can double up as a big family car.

Currently the fashionable thing to have amongst the small business owning tradesmen I know is the VW Transporter Combi, normally in HiLine spec. (The latest Ford Transit again in high spec is picking up ground, and there's a new Renault Trafic). Many of these guys had pickups in the past, but got fed up with the load area compromises.
 
Pickups in Europe are as common as flying pigs in the US.
They are super popular in the US, in parts of Latin America, in the Arab world... so from an "existing Tesla markets" point of view... the US and maybe Australia?

What's a "pickup"? ;-)
They also seem to be very popular with terrorists as they make for very practical mobile weapons platforms. Not sure whether terrorist groups care to much for BEVs though...
 
I think the European Commission is a more objective body for categorizing automobiles than Uber France.

Plus, Tesla is now available with BMW type heated Recaro seats with more rear seat headroom for those with that preference. As indicated by Uber USA many Americans have a different definition of what constitutes seat comfort.

And a rear central console with cupholders for water bottles is now available.

Not to mention the executive rear seat option.
The EC doesn't evaluate a car's interior. It goes by size, weight and price.
BMW type? You got to be kidding? Go sit in a BMW 5-series with comfort seats at a dealership and compare yourself.
 
Getting people out of VW and Ford station wagons is a much more emotional decision for consumers filled with perhaps some irrational range anxiety.

You spoke about Tesla try making a compelling pickup truck. Problem is, at least for most Europeans, the words "pickup truck" and "compelling" are a contradiction in terms.
To us it's not an emotional decision. Station wagons are practical, pickup trucks are not. At least not for what we buy stations wagons for and why they are so immensely popular here.

As indicated by Uber USA many Americans have a different definition of what constitutes seat comfort.

Not meaning to sound rude, but many Americans have a different definition of "normal body size" as well!

And a rear central console with cupholders for water bottles is now available.

True, but at the cost of more or less permanently eliminating the third rear seat. Every carmaker apart from Tesla is able to make foldable rear seats with fold-out armrests and cupholder/storage function, sometimes even with skibag option (like in my car) for transporting long items safely while keeping the interior clean. I don't think it is too much to ask - when this kind of functionality (the fold-out armrest I mean) has been around for decades - that Tesla be able to design such a thing as well. It's not rocket science after all (and if it were, I am sure Space-X could help out with expertise ;-) )

And as the (endless) argument "minimalist philosophy vs. practicality" popped up in this thread as well, I can only stress again that most Europeans seem to prefer practicality over philosophy any day when it comes to their cars. Hence all the well equipped and practical smaller cars and station wagons over here.
And while we are at it, most Europeans also seem to prefer affordability over insane performance as well.

Tesla should take all that into account if they want to sell Model 3 in large numbers over here.

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Really great informative insight into various markets. It seems to me that 'one size fits all' will not cut it for Tesla in overseas markets. Each market might require tailor-made approach and more customized car in order to win more market share.

This is how most car companies work. Look at VW or Toyota for example. They sell very different models in different markets (sometimes under the same name though, like the VW Passat where the US model is a completely different one than ours in Europe), often models for overseas markets are not even available in the "home" market - and vice versa.
 
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Here is the thing : there are no private pickup owners in Europe. That market just does not exist. Why would the average family buy such an unwieldy vehicle?

+1 There is one guy in our town with an American pickup truck. That thing is gigantic. But that guy has a boating business and he uses the truck for towing his customers' large sailing boats around. Plus, he is an Amcar guy (he also has a Corvette and a Mustang). He is not representative of the average German car buyer though ;-)
 
When new.

After a few months, unlike the BMW, the Tesla will sound like a 10 year old mini-cab. :(

It might be something to do with the temperature ranges the plastics experience, I guess mine has seen swings between -5c and +30c, but so have the BMWs / Mercs / Audis we have on fleet which don't seem to suffer the same issue.

This really is something Tesla need to focus on for the UK market, constantly getting the service center to fix cabin noises really isn't sustainable.


Mine's as silent now as it was new, 1,5 years and 43,000 kilometres ago. No creaks or rattles whatsoever, and it has experienced temps as low as -20 degrees at least.
 
Mine's as silent now as it was new, 1,5 years and 43,000 kilometres ago. No creaks or rattles whatsoever, and it has experienced temps as low as -20 degrees at least.

And therein lies the problem.

Your's is silent.

Mine isn't.

IMHO QC is just not up to scratch out the factory door. The reliance on the service centre staff to apply remedial fixes (everyone I know personally with a Model S has had a "list" to get fixed), simply cannot go on and it needs to be fixed at source.

Currently I have 15 cars on my business's fleet (a mix of Audis/BMWs/Mercs/VW from Audi A3's up to Merc SL's), and only one of them has had to go back to the dealer for anything other than servicing. My Tesla has been back 3 times already :(

Of course German car's do go wrong, I'm not suggesting they are perfect, it's just between 0 and 3 years old they do generally seem "right out of the box". At 4-5 years though things start going wrong, cynically you'd suspect built in obsolescence ;)

However if you want a car that will never go wrong, a Lexus LS is hard to beat ;) (My father racked up 250k miles over 20 years in his, and every single one of the gazillion gadgets still worked perfectly)

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+1 There is one guy in our town with an American pickup truck. That thing is gigantic. But that guy has a boating business and he uses the truck for towing his customers' large sailing boats around. Plus, he is an Amcar guy (he also has a Corvette and a Mustang). He is not representative of the average German car buyer though ;-)

+2

I Drove from UK to Austria in mine a couple of years ago, and people were definitely looking at it on the Autobahn. When I got to Austria, a number of people actually came up to ask me about it.
 
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same with mine. 1 1/2year and 46.000 km. Not a single squeak. :)

Maybe it's because mines an early RHD car. The dash is particularly creaky, and will obviously be different.

The door pillar noises though are a common problem, to both LHD and RHD cars. There is a retrofit fix kit for it available from the service centre. (And has been available since before I picked up the car)

Seat base creaking again is a common problem, and applies to both LHS and RHD versions.

I also suspect a worn wheel bearing. You can definitely here a grating/rubbing as weight transfers onto the front nearside wheel.

I'm almost to the point where I take the engineer round the block in the office pool car, a 9 year old (100k mile) Ford Mondeo, that has been abused by countless placement undergrads. When the engine isn't running the Ford is quieter :(

Of course maybe I'm just making it up :rolleyes:
 
And therein lies the problem.

Your's is silent.

Mine isn't.

IMHO QC is just not up to scratch out the factory door. The reliance on the service centre staff to apply remedial fixes (everyone I know personally with a Model S has had a "list" to get fixed), simply cannot go on and it needs to be fixed at source.
When I finally got my car back yesterday I talked to the service lead in Portland. He pointed out that in his experience a lot of this was connected to the quality of the roads where you are. Apparently the factory guys are consistently surprised when they come up to Oregon and drive a Tesla on our ridiculously bad roads. I sure remember that on both of my trips to California I enjoyed how quiet the ride was on better roads.
So at least based on the comments from one Tesla technician it seems that maybe the Factory underestimates how much the cars get shaken in other locations.

Or maybe that's just him making excuses for how many rattle issues I had with my 60 :-D

So far the new car is whisper quiet. It's quite enjoyable...
Currently I have 15 cars on my business's fleet (a mix of Audis/BMWs/Mercs/VW from Audi A3's up to Merc SL's), and only one of them has had to go back to the dealer for anything other than servicing. My Tesla has been back 3 times already :(
I will say that we are all still paying a certain amount of early adopter pain... the new car with a 74xxx VIN appears to be an improvement over the 11xxx VIN S60 (but then, I haven't had it long enough to know for sure) - but from the couple hundred miles it sure feels tighter, the seats are way better, I can identify a bunch of small improvements here and there... so my hope is that they will keep getting better and that every year there'll be a noticeable improvement.
 
When I finally got my car back yesterday I talked to the service lead in Portland. He pointed out that in his experience a lot of this was connected to the quality of the roads where you are. Apparently the factory guys are consistently surprised when they come up to Oregon and drive a Tesla on our ridiculously bad roads. I sure remember that on both of my trips to California I enjoyed how quiet the ride was on better roads.
Either you don't have any experience with the roads in Norway, or you just didn't notice that the two people posting that their cars didn't have any rattles or squeaks were from Norway... ;)

Norway has some of the worst roads in Europe. In 2011, Norway had 221 km of 4 lane motorways, while for instance Albania, one of the poorest countries in Europe, had 759 km. It's a fact that cars just aren't designed for Norwagian roads, and components in the undercarriage often need to be replaced several times over the life of the cars here. (And if you look at some of Bjørn Nylands videos, in places like Denmark the noise level is quite low, while in Norway, it's noisy as hell.) The UK is way ahead of us.
 
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Reading back, I do sound a little negative, I'm glad @dirkhh is giving some feed back that indeed QC is being looked into.

Of course it could just be as I bought an S60 too they were given less care and attention compared to the flagship cars as they went down the line :p

I'm sure road quality and temperatures do have their part to play. My car has done 6000 miles, almost exclusively NOT on the motorway network. It's 8 months old (VIN 33xxx), and was relatively quiet up until the weather turned colder. I don't garage the car, so it gets subject to the full ambient temperature swing.

The other thing you notice in a Tesla is how much weight savings they have tried to incorporate. Whilst we moan about cup holders, grab handles, tiny sunvisors, missing door bins, I have a suspicion there where some serious weight reduction measures in the design brief. The dash board is definitely less structurally rigid than Audi's, and other plastics are noticeably thinner, with less fixings too.

A good example is to look at where the seat belt exits the door pillar. The plastic cowl is thin with relatively few clips, as the seat belt moves in an out it rubs slightly, over time the belt starts ever-so slightly catching the plastic. The light weight plastic and minimal fixings means it resonates like a drum.

I'm speculating slightly, but I would guess overall there are fewer fixings in a Tesla than a comparable German car. If all are done up exactly to torque, and factory fresh, it works and gives a good overall weight saving. The more traditional approach is to put in more fixings to give a greater tolerance to slight mis-torquing / plastic aging / heat conditions, and unexpected harmonic resonance.

I also own a Lotus, which also has thin light weight parts. It too rattles and creaks. It's sort of expected in a track toy, but not in an EU "premium" brand luxury car.


It will be interesting to see how the engineering team can improve the solidity of the interior, add the features we are asking for, and still keep the weight under control.
 
The other thing you notice in a Tesla is how much weight savings they have tried to incorporate. Whilst we moan about cup holders, grab handles, tiny sunvisors, missing door bins, I have a suspicion there where some serious weight reduction measures in the design brief. The dash board is definitely less structurally rigid than Audi's, and other plastics are noticeably thinner, with less fixings too.
The Reus Audio owner commented to me, after installing his stereo kit in my car, that the Model S interior is not put together with the same level of quality or quantity of attachment points, compared to the top-tier cars (Astons, Bentleys, etc.) that he usually works on. His view was that Tesla had a long way to go to bring those details up to the 'luxury' standard.
 
This is from the announcement from Tesla yesterday:
Blind Spot Warning
Blind Spot Warning assists the driver to change lanes safely. When Model S is travelling between 20 mph (30 km/h) and 85 mph (140 km/h) and detects a vehicle in the driver’s blind spot, a white arc will appear on the instrument panel near the bottom of the speedometer. If a collision with the vehicle becomes likely, two red arcs will appear, the steering wheel will vibrate, and the driver will hear a chime.
Limiting blind spot detection to 140 kph won't exactly help sales in Germany. Why oh why do Tesla insist of doing things half-ass and/or ignoring some of its markets.
Limiting to 140 kph actually makes it dangerous since my guess is that most drivers won't be aware of this limitation since their previous German car didn't have this. Going 139, it will warn you, going 141 it won't. On Autobahn where speeds are high and lane changes very frequent I think you get the picture...
 
Limiting blind spot detection to 140 kph won't exactly help sales in Germany. Why oh why do Tesla insist of doing things half-ass and/or ignoring some of its markets.
Limiting to 140 kph actually makes it dangerous since my guess is that most drivers won't be aware of this limitation since their previous German car didn't have this. Going 139, it will warn you, going 141 it won't. On Autobahn where speeds are high and lane changes very frequent I think you get the picture...

I guess you'll just have to be aware of your surroundings while you drive.

I've managed to drive for more than 3 decades without a single autopilot type feature (as have thousands of others) AND managed to not hit anyone dumb enough to be deliberately driving in my blind spot (which happens surprisingly a lot given that they should know better), or to get hit by someone else because I stupidly was driving deliberately in their blind spot. That's not a miracle, that's being a conscience and conscientious driver. Interestingly enough, I can do it at speed as well. Who knew?

I suspect, though, if it's that big of a deal for the few Germans/Europeans who think the center of the driving universe is the Autobahn, that Tesla will consider making a change to the firmware just as they have already with other features like top speed.

It might even be a possibility that Tesla has specifically limited the feature to that speed range because that's currently what the hardware and software are safely capable of and not because of some half-assed/ignoring some markets thing.