Europe: Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase? (Part 2)

[eledille]

That's the point But CHAdeMO adapter is confirmed for Norway, not for EU. Remember Norway is not a member of the European Union, so maybe legal issues about adaptors are not a problem. Just saying...

I doubt that it's got anything to do with the EU. We're not quite a member of the union, but almost, as we're part of this peculiar political construction instead: European Economic Area - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyway, I think that in a few year CHAdeMO will be erased from Europe, replaced by Combo2 as the standard. Is the logic way... Japanese are trying something impossible because ACEA chose Combo2 a long time ago.

+1.

I still think the "10 or 20 kW" stuff is just a carry-over from the US specs. I'll get the most powerful charger available, whether it's 22 or 43 kW. That they've been able to include supercharger support in a type 2 compatible plug is great!

 

[linaser]

I still think the "10 or 20 kW" stuff is just a carry-over from the US specs. I'll get the most powerful charger available, whether it's 22 or 43 kW. That they've been able to include supercharger support in a type 2 compatible plug is great!

Because my Model S should be in my garage very soon (Jun-Jul timeframe), I'm thinking about my charging options.

If there will be no 3x32A EVSE coming with the car, I think I will get the mobile version of the crOhm EVSE1M40 to charge my Model S at home and when I'm on a roadtrip.

What do you think? Is that a good idea?

Or is there still a slight chance, that we will get 3x63A 43kW charging? (Then I would of course buy the EVSE1M63)

 

[widodh]

I don't think there will be a 3x63A option. I'd be stunned if we would get it, but I highly doubt it.

Remember the sheet (can't find it now) that leaked out a few months ago? That clearly stated 20kW at max.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Or is there still a slight chance, that we will get 3x63A 43kW charging? (Then I would of course buy the EVSE1M63)

Sorry but it will be 3x32A.... I would wait until Tesla announce their preferred vendor before making a purchasing decision.... very soon now :smile:

 

[Bipo]

I am still convinced that Model S will support 3x63A... Is the only reason to have a native Type 2 socket instead of a proprietary one and a Tesla-Type2 cable.

 

[gregincal]

I mean, geez. They are supposed to start manufacturing these things in a couple weeks and they still haven't released a spec sheet? Are you guys going to have to wait until one shows up at your door to get a definitive answer to your questions?

 

[Johan]

I mean, geez. They are supposed to start manufacturing these things in a couple weeks and they still haven't released a spec sheet? Are you guys going to have to wait until one shows up at your door to get a definitive answer to your questions?

Yes I ordered the twin chargers and honestly I don't know what I have ordered.

 

[widodh]

I am still convinced that Model S will support 3x63A... Is the only reason to have a native Type 2 socket instead of a proprietary one and a Tesla-Type2 cable.

No, I'm not.

The reason they have a Type 2 socket is that the EU requires a Type 2 inlet on all EV's.

See the specs below which leaked out some time ago.

View attachment 15953
View attachment 15954

I mean, geez. They are supposed to start manufacturing these things in a couple weeks and they still haven't released a spec sheet? Are you guys going to have to wait until one shows up at your door to get a definitive answer to your questions?

Seems like it

 

[AndrewBissell]

The first of those attachments just seems to be nonsense in places, and it contradicts things in the second.

Its just a draft and far from the end point is my view.

 

[widodh]

The first of those attachments just seems to be nonsense in places, and it contradicts things in the second.

Its just a draft and far from the end point is my view.

I agree, but IF Model S would support 63A 3-phase there would have been some mention of that in the draft at least.

Doubling in power doesn't seem right.

Still, I'd be thrilled with 43kW AC, but I'm not expecting it at all.

 

[Bipo]

No, I'm not.

The reason they have a Type 2 socket is that the EU requires a Type 2 inlet on all EV's.

See the specs below which leaked out some time ago.

View attachment 15953
View attachment 15954

Those papers (that I already knew) have many contradictions, and look like a draft.

Type 2 socket is not a requirement in the car side, but in the infrastructure side. In fact, the new European Nissan LEAF (made in Sunderland, UK) has a Type 1 (J1772) socket, and uses a Type 1-to-Type 2 cable to be recharged.

 

[linaser]

I mean, geez. They are supposed to start manufacturing these things in a couple weeks and they still haven't released a spec sheet? Are you guys going to have to wait until one shows up at your door to get a definitive answer to your questions?

Today, I've got an eMail from Tesla EU with the following content:

There are a lot of rumours flying around on the forums at the moment, and we kindly ask you to only rely on information coming directly from Tesla.

You will have the choice to have the Model S delivered with one of the two cables below:

IEC 60309 5PIN Red 16A/3phase (400V)

Or

IEC 60309 3PIN Blue 32A/single phase

If you want to charge on 3-phase, 32A, 400V you will need a high power wall connector. And more information about this will come in the near future.

What I get from that is that there will be no 3x63A (43kW) support and that no CEE 32A EVSE will come with the car.

What still bothers me though is, that they're still not explicitly confirming/dening these two characteristics (I followed up on that - no answer yet).

Based on this information I ordered the mobile version of the crOhm EVSE1M40.

The guys at crOhm where very helpful and agreed to take it back and fully refund, if Tesla should change these specifications or if the EVSE1M40 doesn't work with the Model S.

 

[widodh]

This sounds to me like the 3-phase charger isn't actually operating at 400V, but it's pulling 230V from 3 legs instead of doing a delta configuration they are using a Y-configuration: Three-phase electric power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So what I expect is that if you go for 32A Single phase the charger will put two of these legs in parallel where they both pull from the same leg.

In theory you could even charge with 48A single-phase if you hook all legs up to one phase.

A small bummer, since a 400V delta configuration puts less load on the cabling thus increasing efficiency.

 

[arg]

This sounds to me like the 3-phase charger isn't actually operating at 400V, but it's pulling 230V from 3 legs instead of doing a delta configuration they are using a Y-configuration: Three-phase electric power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So what I expect is that if you go for 32A Single phase the charger will put two of these legs in parallel where they both pull from the same leg.

Seems extremely likely.

A small bummer, since a 400V delta configuration puts less load on the cabling thus increasing efficiency.

How do you come to that conclusion? If the three arms of the Y are accurately balanced (which they should be able to arrange here), then there's no current in the neutral connector and the currents in the three phase conductors are exactly the same as they would be in the delta configuration.

Only disadvantage is that you are (apparently) required to provide the 5th conductor in the cable (or is that what you were meaning?).

 

[Bipo]

Seems extremely likely.

Yes But I am still confident to see 63 A support.

How do you come to that conclusion? If the three arms of the Y are accurately balanced (which they should be able to arrange here), then there's no current in the neutral connector and the currents in the three phase conductors are exactly the same as they would be in the delta configuration.

Only disadvantage is that you are (apparently) required to provide the 5th conductor in the cable (or is that what you were meaning?).

No, the problem of using three separate sigle-phase chargers instead of one three-phase charger is that you need a large inductance in each sigle-phase charger to get a proper direct current, but if you use an adequate three-phase charger you (almost) do not need any inductance at all because of the natural balance between phases:

As you can see in the last case (full-wave rectifier) the output is almost constant so, with a little inductance, you can get a very good direct current.

Furthermore, using the common 400V 3-ph current you get 400V DC, that matches the common charging voltage of the Tesla battery pack, so the DC/DC converter has a little job to do. Perfect for efficiency.

 

[FlasherZ]

This sounds to me like the 3-phase charger isn't actually operating at 400V, but it's pulling 230V from 3 legs instead of doing a delta configuration they are using a Y-configuration: Three-phase electric power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So what I expect is that if you go for 32A Single phase the charger will put two of these legs in parallel where they both pull from the same leg.

In theory you could even charge with 48A single-phase if you hook all legs up to one phase.

A small bummer, since a 400V delta configuration puts less load on the cabling thus increasing efficiency.

Do you get your choice of 3-phase voltage & configuration in EU? In the US, you can generally choose between 3. Just curious...

 

[doug]

No, the problem of using three separate sigle-phase chargers instead of one three-phase charger is that you need a large inductance in each sigle-phase charger to get a proper direct current, but if you use an adequate three-phase charger you (almost) do not need any inductance at all because of the natural balance between phases:

But the car should also support single phase charging, right. In which case you'd need that higher level of filtering anyway.

 

[widodh]

Do you get your choice of 3-phase voltage & configuration in EU? In the US, you can generally choose between 3. Just curious...

No, we get 400V 3-phase which is 230V between a Hot and Neutral leg.

Maximum draw on a single-phase is 32A and then you have to go to 3-phase.

 

[Mark Petersen]

Hi Tesla has just updated the speck page with details about EU charging

11 kW capable on-board charger with the following input compatibility: 85-265 V, 45-65 Hz, 1ph-40A
(Optional 22 kW capable Twin Chargers increases single phase input compatibility to 80A)
Peak charger efficiency of 94%
11 kW capable Universal Mobile Connector,
IEC 60309 5 PIN Red 16A/3-phase (230/400 V) or
IEC 60309 3 PIN Blue 32A/single-phase (240 V) adapter
A choice of adapter is available at time of purchase

also as the 3 phase text is just a tad unclear, I called Tesla UK, and they confirmed that it do support 3 phase
the Universal Mobile Connector only support 11 kW, if you need to charge at 22 kW you need to use a Mennekes/IEC 62196-2 charging station

 

[widodh]

Hi Tesla has just updated the speck page with details about EU charging



also as the 3 phase text is just a tad unclear, I called Tesla UK, and they confirmed that it do support 3 phase
the Universal Mobile Connector only support 11 kW, if you need to charge at 22 kW you need to use a Mennekes/IEC 62196-2 charging station

1-phase 40A it says and suddenly with the UMC you can do 3-phase? Right... Your call to the UK was needed I guess.


The 32A Blue CEE adapter is aimed at 240V, so I guess the UK where the rest of Europe is all using 3-phase 400V.


Still what I expected. 22kW 32A 3-phase with the Twin Chargers