Europe: Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase? (Part 2)

[arg]

No, the problem of using three separate sigle-phase chargers instead of one three-phase charger is that you need a large inductance in each sigle-phase charger to get a proper direct current, but if you use an adequate three-phase charger you (almost) do not need any inductance at all because of the natural balance between phases:

As you can see in the last case (full-wave rectifier) the output is almost constant so, with a little inductance, you can get a very good direct current.

Maybe you are right - but I would have thought that at these power levels the harmonic content would be too high, so you would need active power-factor correction anyhow, which removes most of the advantage.

Anyhow, this is all academic now: we now know for sure that it not a 3-phase only design, even if the rest of the spec is still not really clear!

 

[jkirkebo]

1-phase 40A it says and suddenly with the UMC you can do 3-phase? Right... Your call to the UK was needed I guess.

The 32A Blue CEE adapter is aimed at 240V, so I guess the UK where the rest of Europe is all using 3-phase 400V.

And Norway since 3-phase 230V is not supported. So most of us Norwegians will be using 32A single phase to charge at home.
We have some 400V TN here, but >80% of private homes only have 230V IT.

 

[FlasherZ]

Very interesting. I'm curious as to how they will connect the chargers to the 3-phase mains supply, since from the specs it looks to be the same chargers they use in the US models. With an AC input on the chargers rated at 265V max, they can only be using N-L voltage. To use three phases (400Y/230V configuration), they'd need 3 chargers @ 7.4 kW each, or 2 chargers, one with 7.4 kW capacity and one with 14.8 kW (two switching input stages feeding a common DC bus).

Unless the voltage specs are incorrect, and they use 2 L-L connections @ 28A each?

 

[Johan]

Very interesting. I'm curious as to how they will connect the chargers to the 3-phase mains supply, since from the specs it looks to be the same chargers they use in the US models. With an AC input on the chargers rated at 265V max, they can only be using N-L voltage. To use three phases, they'd need 3 chargers @ 7.4 kW each, or 2 chargers, one with 7.4 kW capacity and one with 14.8 kW (two switching input stages feeding a common DC bus).

Unless the voltage specs are incorrect, and they use 2 L-L connections @ 28A each?

Yes, this is why we have been speculating around the 10/20kW (which now turns out being 11/22kW) specs for some time. I guessed they would have to put three chargers in the car, and if that was the case that there would be a singe/twin option for Europe. But I guess I was off.

 

[LuckyLuke]

The 1-phase 40A spec is only true when used with a single phase source, when using a 3-phase source the single charger draws 3x16A, so max per phase would be 16A. Maybe they should put something like "3-phase 3x16A" in that text.

 

[widodh]

Very interesting. I'm curious as to how they will connect the chargers to the 3-phase mains supply, since from the specs it looks to be the same chargers they use in the US models. With an AC input on the chargers rated at 265V max, they can only be using N-L voltage. To use three phases (400Y/230V configuration), they'd need 3 chargers @ 7.4 kW each, or 2 chargers, one with 7.4 kW capacity and one with 14.8 kW (two switching input stages feeding a common DC bus).

Unless the voltage specs are incorrect, and they use 2 L-L connections @ 28A each?

The specs on the page are incorrect. Elon said that they redesigned the charger to be able to draw from 3-phases, so clearly the guy who updated the website forgot to update a piece.

 

[FlasherZ]

The specs on the page are incorrect. Elon said that they redesigned the charger to be able to draw from 3-phases, so clearly the guy who updated the website forgot to update a piece.

And that makes more sense... 3 switching input stages feeding common DC bus.

 

[arg]

Do you get your choice of 3-phase voltage & configuration in EU? In the US, you can generally choose between 3. Just curious...

Beware of thinking of the EU as a single place: despite regular harmonization initiatives throughout my lifetime, there's still significant regional differences. Having said that, we seem to get along with significantly fewer phase and voltage combinations than you do - differences are more in the details of wiring.

Some of the harmonization was done by 'cheating' - for example, UK was previously 240/415V and since 1995 has been at the harmonized 230/400V, but that was simply achieved by changing the tolerance specification from 240(+/-5%) to 230(+10-6%) without doing any engineering work at all. My supply this evening still reads 238V. So if the Tesla chargers are really rated by current rather than by power (as the US versions seem to be), then we may end up charging marginally faster here than in the former 220V countries.

UK low voltage distribution practice (ie. anything other than heavy industrial where you get 11kV or higher) is entirely 230/400V 3-phase Y (grounded neutral), with one of the phases + neutral used for single phase loads.

Domestic/light-industrial supplies are available at the standard sizes of 63A 1-phase, 100A 1-phase, 63A 3-phase, or 100A 3-phase: a 3-phase cable runs down the street and alternate phases are tapped to supply each house. Only the very largest houses get 3-phase, although it is common in office/light-industrial premises or apartment blocks. Distribution wiring is almost exclusively underground, so getting a 3-phase supply where it does not exist already is very expensive (a number of friends have looked at this because they'd like to pick up cheap lathes etc. on ebay, but it turns out much cheaper to get an inverter to make 3-phase from the existing single phase than get a 3-phase supply installed). Even in buildings with 3-phase, there aren't necessarily 3-phase distribution boards (breaker boxes, consumer units): you will quite often see the supply split to a single phase board on each floor or something like that.

So, for the UK home charging of EVs will necessarily be single phase, but on the other hand anywhere that's got enough power to run a Model S with twin chargers will almost certainly have 3-phase available.

Other parts of EU have 3-phase more commonly available in homes, but have more trouble delivering high-current single phase.


UK final circuit wiring is also completely different from most other countries in Europe - we have 32A ring circuits with multiple 13A outlets and a fuse in the plug, so you can be comfortable taking the full 13A out of any random outlet.

 

[FlasherZ]

Thank you for the details! I knew that harmonization used tolerances to align things, but didn't realize how many different supplies were present.

(And in the rural areas of the US, it's also sometimes much less expensive to use a rotary phase converter or variable frequency drive than to pay the power company to get you the third leg of 3-phase service.)

 

[widodh]

Beware of thinking of the EU as a single place: despite regular harmonization initiatives throughout my lifetime, there's still significant regional differences. Having said that, we seem to get along with significantly fewer phase and voltage combinations than you do - differences are more in the details of wiring.

Indeed. That's mostly due to historical reasons.

Some of the harmonization was done by 'cheating' - for example, UK was previously 240/440V and since 1995 has been at the harmonized 230/400V, but that was simply achieved by changing the tolerance specification from 240(+/-5%) to 230(+10-6%) without doing any engineering work at all. My supply this evening still reads 238V. So if the Tesla chargers are really rated by current rather than by power (as the US versions seem to be), then we may end up charging marginally faster here than in the former 220V countries.

The voltage in my house also reads somewhere around 240V although 230V is the spec: http://energy.widodh.nl/

When charging the Roadster it chargers at 236V at 32A.

UK low voltage distribution practice (ie. anything other than heavy industrial where you get 11kV or higher) is entirely 230/400V 3-phase Y (grounded neutral), with one of the phases + neutral used for single phase loads.

That's about the same everywhere. The 230V is all between phase and neutral.

Domestic/light-industrial supplies are available at the standard sizes of 63A 1-phase, 100A 1-phase, 63A 3-phase, or 100A 3-phase: a 3-phase cable runs down the street and alternate phases are tapped to supply each house. Only the very largest houses get 3-phase, although it is common in office/light-industrial premises or apartment blocks. Distribution wiring is almost exclusively underground, so getting a 3-phase supply where it does not exist already is very expensive (a number of friends have looked at this because they'd like to pick up cheap lathes etc. on ebay, but it turns out much cheaper to get an inverter to make 3-phase from the existing single phase than get a 3-phase supply installed). Even in buildings with 3-phase, there aren't necessarily 3-phase distribution boards (breaker boxes, consumer units): you will quite often see the supply split to a single phase board on each floor or something like that.

So here is where the difference kicks in. In mainland Europe most houses and buildings actually get all three phases, but L2 and L3 might not be connected due to the customer not requiring it.

Single phases loads of up to 63A or 100A are not allowed. The highest you can get is 40A single-phase as your main breaker and afterwards you need to go to 3x25A, 3x40A, 3x50A, 3x63A, etc, etc.

So, for the UK home charging of EVs will necessarily be single phase, but on the other hand anywhere that's got enough power to run a Model S with twin chargers will almost certainly have 3-phase available.

Other parts of EU have 3-phase more commonly available in homes, but have more trouble delivering high-current single phase.

Correct, that sums it up correctly. The UK has some differences with the mainland, but those seems to be historical.


UK final circuit wiring is also completely different from most other countries in Europe - we have 32A ring circuits with multiple 13A outlets and a fuse in the plug, so you can be comfortable taking the full 13A out of any random outlet.[/QUOTE]

 

[linaser]

Today, I've got an eMail from Tesla EU with the following content:
What I get from that is that there will be no 3x63A (43kW) support and that no CEE 32A EVSE will come with the car.

What still bothers me though is, that they're still not explicitly confirming/dening these two characteristics (I followed up on that - no answer yet).

A few days ago I finally received an answer to both of my questions mentioned above:

- There will be no CEE 3x32A EVSE coming with the car
- 3-Phase charging is maxing out at 3x32A = 22 kW

After all this is was what the most of us expected. But it also means, that
a) all EU-Model S owners with dual chargers will need additional hardware to make use of the 2nd charger and
b) the Renault Zoe's AC-charging capability exceeds the Model S by a factor of 2.

They also noted, that the crOhm EVSE should work with the Model S, which was more than I expected.

Now I'm very exited to finally take delivery of my car and I'm very much looking forward to start driving it!

 

[Soulopoulos]

#TeslaModelS 3-phase charging:

If you would like to charge using 3-phase electricity, there are two options for you:

+ To charge 50km of range per hour, all you need is a 3-phase (400V), 16A connection using a 5-pin red CEE plug for 16A (they are smaller than the ones for 32A). Your Model S will be delivered with a charging cable and an adapter that connects to such a plug.

+ To charge 100km of range per hour, you will need a 3-phase (400V), 32A connection and our so-called “High Power Wall Connector” which will be available soon. Since Model S uses standard plugs, you can also purchase a third party connector using a Type 2 charging system. Known manufacturers are Mennekes and Walther, although there are others too. The charge port on the Model S is a Type 2 (Mennekes plug), meaning you will probably have to buy an additional charging cable (possibly Type 2 to Type 2) if you purchase a third party wall connector.

Confirmed by Tesla Motors Helene Hendus | European Ownership Experience Advocate

 

[Bipo]

If that is a final confirmation I feel a bit disappointed... It makes no sense for me not being able to use the 3x63A charging spots.

Maybe we will get another "easter egg" when the car finally arrives (remember that SC capability was an option in the 60 kWh model but finally every car had the SC hardware mounted).

 

[Johan]

If that is a final confirmation I feel a bit disappointed... It makes no sense for me not being able to use the 3x63A charging spots.

Maybe we will get another "easter egg" when the car finally arrives (remember that SC capability was an option in the 60 kWh model but finally every car had the SC hardware mounted).

I am too slightly dissappointed that Tesla was outdone by Renault when it comes to AC charging. Not suprised though, but I understand that you have had the impression that 43kW (63A/400V/3 phase) would be supported since someone told you that at the autoshow in Switzerland?

And when it comes to a possible easter egg I think this is not going to happen. After all we're talking about doubling the AC charging hardware.

 

[Bipo]

Precisely Johan, as I was explicit told about 43 kW at Geneva Motor Show, and as Tesla had chosen the Type 2 native socket for the car instead of proprietary one and a cable Tesla-Type 2; I was convinced that the Model S would be able to deal with 43 kW AC

A little big disappointment, indeed...

 

[nikwest]

So did I understand correctly that the car does not come with a type 2 cable?

While the 32A dual charger option is acceptable albeit not great, especially for the best car of the world, I think 16A without dual charger is not an acceptable solution for such a car at all. Even my 1 bed room flat has 3x40A available. Why even bother offering such an option at all. My guess is to not upset anybody in the US.

 

[jkirkebo]

That's about the same everywhere. The 230V is all between phase and neutral.

Nope. Most of Norway have the IT distribution grid where 230V is the phase to phase voltage. We do not have a Neutral wire, all loads must be between phase wires. Thus three-phase loads must all be delta, no wye possible without a transformer.

- - - Updated - - -

So did I understand correctly that the car does not come with a type 2 cable?

While the 32A dual charger option is acceptable albeit not great, especially for the best car of the world, I think 16A without dual charger is not an acceptable solution for such a car at all. Even my 1 bed room flat has 3x40A available. Why even bother offering such an option at all. My guess is to not upset anybody in the US.

No, you must buy the Type 2 cable separately. You can use any Type 2 cable.

Why do you need such fast charging at home? 3x16A will refill any Model S over night. 3x32A is useful for road trips where there are no SCs.

- - - Updated - - -

A few days ago I finally received an answer to both of my questions mentioned above:

- There will be no CEE 32A EVSE coming with the car

Not quite. There will be no 3x32A EVSE coming with the car. The included EVSE (the UMC as Tesla calls it) will however support 1x32A (7.4kw). This is what most Norwegians (and most of the UK owners I guess) will use to charge at home.

 

[Rla]

Why do you need such fast charging at home? 3x16A will refill any Model S over night. 3x32A is useful for road trips where there are no SCs.

You would not need it at home, but on the road. Having the added option of being able to use other fast-charging AC stations (Total - 400V/63A - dutch). Indeed not having to wait and see several Renault Zoe's charge lots faster than 'us'.

 

[nikwest]

Why do you need such fast charging at home? 3x16A will refill any Model S over night. 3x32A is useful for road trips where there are no SCs.

No you don't need to charge that fast at home. I usually charge my roadster with 13A most of the times. However when doing road trips you want quicker charging. Maybe I'm burned by the suboptimal charging options of the roadster, but charging is really important. It's no fun if you have to charge at 50km per hour. This just sheds an unnecessary bad light on the S, when those cars are in the the wild. It's a common theme I experience when talking with people about my roadster.
I'm also wondering if the difference in production cost between 16A and 32A chargers justifies the hassle and cost of having two different options. If it was 32A and 63A it might have, but I doubt that there are significant material reasons for offering a 16A and a 32A option besides to mirror what is available in the US.

 

[linaser]

Not quite. There will be no 3x32A EVSE coming with the car. The included EVSE (the UMC as Tesla calls it) will however support 1x32A (7.4kw). This is what most Norwegians (and most of the UK owners I guess) will use to charge at home.

You're right, I corrected my post accordingly. I meant to say: "There will be no CEE 3x32A EVSE coming with the car".