Evgo 350 kW 4 station charger in Baker, Ca. (June 2017)

[bro1999]

It's threads/stories like this that cause me to roll my eyes when people just assume that any other entity (GM, VW, etc.) can effortlessly roll out a Nationwide changing network that is even 1/10 the scale of the Supercharger network. I'll believe it when I see it. Until then, I will enjoy watching what is the modern equivalent of a 3 Stooges episode...

And also somewhat related: I went to watch a baseball game at a local park, which had a library next door. Much to my surprise, there was a sign pointing to "EV Charger". Figured I would plug in just for the pure joy of it for an hour. To my even greater surprise, there was a L3 Chargepoint DCFC sitting next to the L2 Chargepoint charger I carry a Chargepoint card so I thought I would do the DCFC, again, just for the pure joy of it. Spent about 10 minutes trying to find the magical sequence of: 1) card swipe, 2) disconnect Chademo, 3) plug into car, 4) press start button, 5) check screen for instructions, 6) figure out why it is not working, 7) go back to step #1, 8) lather, rinse, repeat.

After 10 minutes, I just moved to the L2 charger and spent only about 3 minutes jumping through the hoops. Even my cousin who was visiting, and was with me on a prior Vegas trip in a rented Model X, pointed out how the Supercharger network was dead simple. DEAD SIMPLE. Anyone building a fast charging network that isn't as DEAD SIMPLE as just plugging in and walking away is going to be SIMPLY DEAD.

RT

The standard wars (along with navigating the various charging networks) is definitely a negative. Having multiple standards (Supercharger, CCS, CHAdeMO, soon Megacharger) is really a road block to acceptance of EVs by the average Joes.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

Three questions.

1 .Is the VW network going to be only CCS or will it be Chademo as well?

2. Has anyone ever built a CCS to Chademo converter?

3. Is it possible. eg..compatible..Is it a problem with hardware or software.

Thanks in advance for any answers.

John

 

[TexasEV]

The standard wars (along with navigating the various charging networks) is definitely a negative. Having multiple standards (Supercharger, CCS, CHAdeMO, soon Megacharger) is really a road block to acceptance of EVs by the average Joes.

Megacharger is irrelevant to average Joe unless he drives a semi, in which case supercharger, CCS, and CHAdeMO are irrelevant.

 

[bro1999]

Megacharger is irrelevant to average Joe unless he drives a semi, in which case supercharger, CCS, and CHAdeMO are irrelevant.

Wait till the Gigachargers come out.

 

[MP3Mike]

Three questions.

1 .Is the VW network going to be only CCS or will it be Chademo as well?

2. Has anyone ever built a CCS to Chademo converter?

3. Is it possible. eg..compatible..Is it a problem with hardware or software.

The CCS standard doesn't allow adapters. (Which is probably why Tesla hasn't made one.)

 

[Webeevdrivers]

The CCS standard doesn't allow adapters. (Which is probably why Tesla hasn't made one.)

Thankuoi for your reply. Could you expand on that a bit. What makes it unadaptable. I figure a guy like Tony can probably make anything. What prevents it.

Thanks again.

John.

 

[Jeff N]

The CCS standard doesn't allow adapters. (Which is probably why Tesla hasn't made one.)

It’s unclear whether that is a European regulatory-inspired limitation or whether it also applies to CCS as it is mirrored and incorporated into SAE specifications that govern the CCS type 1 plug used primarily in North America. Actually, I’ve never seen the alleged specification text that prohibits adapters in Europe so I’m not certain that this lore is accurate.

The SAE has selectively dropped a few parts of the original 2011-2012 era CCS specification (such as the part relating to using public key encryption to authenticate charging so a driver doesn’t need to use an RFID cars). I quick keyword search of the latest J1772 specification update for both AC and DC that reflects the new generation international CCS standard does not show any discussion about CCS to CHAdeMO style adapters.

 

[bro1999]

Thankuoi for your reply. Could you expand on that a bit. What makes it unadaptable. I figure a guy like Tony can probably make anything. What prevents it.

Thanks again.

John.

$$$$

I actually asked Tony, and he basically said the market is too tiny for him to bother making an adapter which would likely have to cost $1,500-$2,000 for him to make any money selling it to that extremely tiny market.

I don't really see the point of a CCS adapter anyways. How many CCS only stations are out there? Or CHAdeMO only? Almost all new stations are dual CCS/CHAdeMO.

 

[Jeff N]

1 .Is the VW network going to be only CCS or will it be Chademo as well?

All of the initial DC charging hardware installed during their first 2.5 year cycle of planning and investment will come with dual-standard cables and plugs to support both CHAdeMO and CCS.

Generally, support for standards-based charging including CHAdeMO, CCS, and possible future standards is discussed in the legal settlement between VW, CARB, and the EPA. VW (Electrify America) is supposed to be standards neutral although they are allowed to vary support based on market trends so if CCS ends up dominating the US market and the number of CHAdeMO-based cars begins to shrink then they are allowed to have an unequal balance favoring CCS-only charging hardware in the future.

2. Has anyone ever built a CCS to Chademo converter?

Not that I’m aware of. I’m pretty sure that no such product is available for public sale yet.

3. Is it possible. eg..compatible..Is it a problem with hardware or software.

There is no conceptual reason that would prevent an adapter from allowing a CHAdeMO car to charge at a CCS-only charger much like Tesla today has an adapter that allows Tesla cars to charge at CHAdeMO chargers.

 

[Jeff N]

I went to watch a baseball game at a local park, which had a library next door. Much to my surprise, there was a sign pointing to "EV Charger". Figured I would plug in just for the pure joy of it for an hour. To my even greater surprise, there was a L3 Chargepoint DCFC sitting next to the L2 Chargepoint charger I carry a Chargepoint card so I thought I would do the DCFC, again, just for the pure joy of it. Spent about 10 minutes trying to find the magical sequence of: 1) card swipe, 2) disconnect Chademo, 3) plug into car, 4) press start button, 5) check screen for instructions, 6) figure out why it is not working, 7) go back to step #1, 8) lather, rinse, repeat.

After 10 minutes, I just moved to the L2 charger and spent only about 3 minutes jumping through the hoops. Even my cousin who was visiting, and was with me on a prior Vegas trip in a rented Model X, pointed out how the Supercharger network was dead simple. DEAD SIMPLE. Anyone building a fast charging network that isn't as DEAD SIMPLE as just plugging in and walking away is going to be SIMPLY DEAD.

RT

You are one of those “Tesla weirdos” using a CHAdeMO adapter. That inherently makes things more complicated and introduces additional compatibility risk.

Normal non-adapter-using people just have to follow the simple instructions listed on the charger. Sadly, there are different instructions for different CCS chargers. ChargePoint chargers want you to authenticate with your RFID cars, NFC phone, smartphone app, or whatever first and then plug in. The chargers from ABB and BTC are happy if you plug in first and then authenticate. This likely where your confusion arose — you knew what you were doing so you didn’t bother to read and follow the instructions in front of your nose. I’ve been there and done that.... I do agree that this is unnecessary confusion that should have been standardized or suggested via use case models in the specs.

Hopefully we are moving to a world with automatic authentication as supported in the CCS specifications so you can just plug in and charge like you can at a Tesla Supercharger.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

All of the initial DC charging hardware installed during their first 2.5 year cycle of planning and investment will come with dual-standard cables and plugs to support both CHAdeMO and CCS.

Generally, support for standards-based charging including CHAdeMO, CCS, and possible future standards is discussed in the legal settlement between VW, CARB, and the EPA. VW (Electrify America) is supposed to be standards neutral although they are allowed to vary support based on market trends so if CCS ends up dominating the US market and the number of CHAdeMO-based cars begins to shrink then they are allowed to have an unequal balance favoring CCS-only charging hardware in the future.


Not that I’m aware of. I’m pretty sure that no such product is available for public sale yet.


There is no conceptual reason that would prevent an adapter from allowing a CHAdeMO car to charge at a CCS-only charger much like Tesla today has an adapter that allows Tesla cars to charge at CHAdeMO chargers.

Very informative. Thank you. So if for some reason VW suddenly leans towards CCS and starts cranking out entire routes with only CCS charging there is no reason we couldn’t kidnap uncle Tony, throw him, a 3D printer, a slide rule, a case of water and a bucket of chicken in a locked room and have a workable product a week or two later. (Bathroom breaks of course...or just lock him in a bathroom).

I own one of Tony’s products. Top notch stuff. He would be the guy I want to build it.

None of this will be an issue of course if the next vehicle is a model 3 instead of another leaf but too early to tell.

Cheers

John.

 

[miimura]

You are one of those “Tesla weirdos” using a CHAdeMO adapter. That inherently makes things more complicated and introduces additional compatibility risk.

Normal non-adapter-using people just have to follow the simple instructions listed on the charger. Sadly, there are different instructions for different CCS chargers. ChargePoint chargers want you to authenticate with your RFID cars, NFC phone, smartphone app, or whatever first and then plug in. The chargers from ABB and BTC are happy if you plug in first and then authenticate. This likely where your confusion arose — you knew what you were doing so you didn’t bother to read and follow the instructions in front of your nose. I’ve been there and done that.... I do agree that this is unnecessary confusion that should have been standardized or suggested via use case models in the specs.

Hopefully we are moving to a world with automatic authentication as supported in the CCS specifications so you can just plug in and charge like you can at a Tesla Supercharger.

@RubberToe had a Soul EV, so I would not assume he was using the Tesla CHAdeMO adapter. Personally, I have no problems with the ChargePoint Express 200 stations with our e-Golf or our JdeMO equipped RAV4 EV.

 

[Jeff N]

@RubberToe had a Soul EV, so I would not assume he was using the Tesla CHAdeMO adapter. Personally, I have no problems with the ChargePoint Express 200 stations with our e-Golf or our JdeMO equipped RAV4 EV.

Okay, that could be a bogus assumption by me. We’ll have to hear from him if he was driving the Soul EV or using a Tesla CHAdeMO adapter.

 

[RubberToe]

Okay, that could be a bogus assumption by me. We’ll have to hear from him if he was driving the Soul EV or using a Tesla CHAdeMO adapter.

Yes, driving the Soul EV. But definitely still a Tesla Weirdo Wannabe

Funny thing is I charged at the Caltech DCFC while watching the baseball team there play on Saturday. No issue at all. Much simpler system too.

We will see how the VW Electrify America deployment goes. Their next quarterly report is due before the end of February. I'll give their system a try too. They chose GreenLots for network management. My experience with the GreenLots DCFC at Del Mar station in Pasadena is about as abysmal as the Torrance baseball field.

I have Supercharged a Tesla (rented) probably 10 times. It worked every time.

The main problem seemed to be that once I plugged in, the DCFC just wasn't supplying any current. The screen showed that. Couldn't unplug from the car since the connector locks. Only option was to hit the Stop button on the screen and start the process over again.

RT

 

[Jeff N]

Yes, driving the Soul EV. But definitely still a Tesla Weirdo Wannabe

Funny thing is I charged at the Caltech DCFC while watching the baseball team there play on Saturday. No issue at all. Much simpler system too.

We will see how the VW Electrify America deployment goes. Their next quarterly report is due before the end of February. I'll give their system a try too. They chose GreenLots for network management. My experience with the GreenLots DCFC at Del Mar station in Pasadena is about as abysmal as the Torrance baseball field.

I have Supercharged a Tesla (rented) probably 10 times. It worked every time.

The main problem seemed to be that once I plugged in, the DCFC just wasn't supplying any current. The screen showed that. Couldn't unplug from the car since the connector locks. Only option was to hit the Stop button on the screen and start the process over again.

RT

My memory of charging at a Greenlots Efacec Charger (like the one at the Del Mar station) is that it is like ChargePoint in wanting you to authenticate first and then plug into the car. The charger at CalTech is a BTC unit. I’m guessing it works like EVgo’s BTC chargers in that it doesn’t care if you plug into your car first before authenticating. On the other hand, all of my recent experience is using CCS with my Bolt whereas you were using CHAdeMO on your Soul EV so the difference in plug design and protocol could have some behavior difference as well, I suppose.

 

[Covfefe]

anyone go back out there yet?

if no one posts by march 1st ill head back out and take a look

 

[RubberToe]

I'll be taking pictures on 3-15 and posting.

RT

 

[Covfefe]

called the gift shop a few days ago, they said there is still a crew out there working on it

RT, keep us updated on thursday/friday when you head out there

 

[yuhong]

The fun thing is that the photos still say prototype for the chargers.

 

[RubberToe]