Exactly How Strong is the Regen?

[Futuresystem]

It would definitely be nice if they could have three (or more) regen settings. We have a Mitsubishi PHEV and it has five, via flappy paddles, level 1 being zero, level 5 being max.(I love regen, and nearly always drive the PHEV on max.)
I've done about 400 klms in a 2017 Model S and found the regen was excellent, (much stronger than our PHEV) though it would have been nice to have more options.

There are times when it's great to have max regen, and drive with just one pedal, and times when it's nice to have less. It would be brilliant if Tesla could could come up with a variable regen like the Mitsubishi PHEV system.
The other thing I really like on our PHEV is that initial brake pedal application is all just increased regen at anything other than very low speed. You can get about double the normal max regen with the brake pedal with no actual physical braking, yet the transition from pure regen to brakes is almost imperceptible. The brakes only activate when you push harder, or approach minimum regen speed, (and brake wear on our PHEV is virtually non existant.)
Whilst I'm impatient to get our Model 3, (have a very long wait as we are in Australia), there are some things I actually like more on the Mitsubishi PHEV, regen/brake integration being one of them.

Surely in time Tesla can come up with more than just the current two levels of regen, I certainly hope so.

Cya

 

[Uncle Paul]

I notice that drivers like access to lots of regeneration, but passengers hate it.

Let some one else drive your Tesla, and notice how sensitive you are to the amount of regeneration they produce.

I make extra efforts to modulate regeneration when I have a passenger along.

 

[Vostok]

There are times when it's great to have max regen, and drive with just one pedal, and times when it's nice to have less. It would be brilliant if Tesla could could come up with a variable regen like the Mitsubishi PHEV system. The other thing I really like on our PHEV is that initial brake pedal application is all just increased regen at anything other than very low speed. You can get about double the normal max regen with the brake pedal with no actual physical braking, yet the transition from pure regen to brakes is almost imperceptible. The brakes only activate when you push harder, or approach minimum regen speed, (and brake wear on our PHEV is virtually non existant.) Whilst I'm impatient to get our Model 3, (have a very long wait as we are in Australia), there are some things I actually like more on the Mitsubishi PHEV, regen/brake integration being one of them. Surely in time Tesla can come up with more than just the current two levels of regen, I certainly hope so.

I absolutely agree. I love the regen in the LEAF and would like it to be even stronger than it is for true one-pedal driving. It took me all of about 10 minutes to get used to regen when I bought my LEAF 3 years ago - so comments here about ICE drivers not liking it or not being able to get used to it are truly infuriating in my eyes. I would be screaming and shouting at them telling them what complete and utter idiots they are (how to win friends and influence people, eh).

Tesla is really missing an opportunity here. Regen can contribute a huge proportion of energy used to drive a BEV. In the LEAF, the telemetry stats from Nissan's server tell me that a whopping 37% of the power I have used over 3 years has come from regen braking. 37%!!! No wonder the LEAF efficiency is so good (around 130-140 Wh/km). Unfortunately TESLA don't provide telemetry data on regen, so we don't know how good (or bad) it is.

Model 3 efficiency appears to be close to the LEAF but I think this is despite its poor regen and almost entirely due to its much better aerodynamics (lower Cd). If Tesla had an option for max regen, this additional power would improve efficiency even further, and Model 3 could even beat the Hyundai Ioniq BEV which currently holds the crown.

I'm in Oz too, and hoping my Model 3 is not much more than a year away... fingers crossed.

 

[scottf200]

In the LEAF, the telemetry stats from Nissan's server tell me that a whopping 37% of the power I have used over 3 years has come from regen braking. 37%!!! No wonder the LEAF efficiency is so good (around 130-140 Wh/km). Unfortunately TESLA don't provide telemetry data on regen, so we don't know how good (or bad) it is.

That seems like one of those misleading stats. I think it is ignoring how far you could have traveled (coasted) with less energy being used for forward motion. To many regen is nice for one-step (aka single-step) driving but it is not a huge amount of less power used. Coasting is known to save a lot of energy (gas or battery depending on your circles).

 

[Vostok]

That seems like one of those misleading stats. I think it is ignoring how far you could have traveled (coasted) with less energy being used for forward motion. To many regen is nice for one-step (aka single-step) driving but it is not a huge amount of less power used. Coasting is known to save a lot of energy (gas or battery depending on your circles).

No, it is not a misleading stat. I can download the telemetry data from Nissan - it stored there for 6 months. For every "trip" (i.e between turning the car on and off), the data provided is kWh consumed, kWh generated (from regen), net kWh (consumed minus generated), and how far you travelled (km, to one decimal place). I use that data to calculate the regen percentage (kWh generated/kWh consumed). So it's my calculation, not Nissan's, and unless they are lying about how many kWh are generated from regen (and why would they do that?) I think we can say the data is robust.

 

[Brando]

So glad to read all this regen speculation based on charts.
Thought I'd have to do an actual test drive to see how I liked it.

 

[EV-lutioin]

As some of the other commenters noted, I think it's marketing, primarily. I think Tesla is trying to make a car that many ICE owners will find comfortable and familiar. If every time you lift your foot of the accelerator, the vehicle "brakes" hard through regen, some are going to hate it and will be turned off. Many of my renters set my vehicles on low regen and turn on creep. Why? Because it's familiar to them. Most like their automatic transmission ICE vehicle. Yeah, they get less range and need to keep their foot on the brake. But change is hard, even if it's change for the better.

I remember taking my neighbor for a ride in my brand-new Model X. He constantly kept taking his foot completely off the accelerator in a a quick movement, thus jerking the car into slowing down. He hated it and could never stop doing it. It was not only an unpleasant ride for both of us, he will never buy a Tesla after that experience, I can assure you. He did NOT like it.

With that said, it seem that Tesla could offer vehicles with three settings: No Regen, Medium Regen, Heavy Regen. They could ship all vehicles with the middle setting activated. For people like my neighbor, they could choose No Regen with a warning that it will reduce their range. For people like us who want one-foot driving, we could all turn Heavy Regen on.

Just my two pennies....

Re: Your neighbor. I wonder.... if you can't figure out regen... should you be driving at all?
I agree, a full spectrum of regen options would be ideal and I think Tesla has known this for years, so I wonder why they haven't done it?

 

[outdoors]

Strong enough that I turned it down when the road was solid ice today.

 

[Vostok]

I was spurred on to update my LEAF stats (see chart). It's a shame that we can't produce a comparable chart for a TESLA.



The chart shows the regeneration rate vs energy efficiency for all 'trips' over 3 years. The crosshair in the middle represents the lifetime average operating point, which is 141 Wh/km and 37.1% regen rate. The size of each bubble is proportional to the length of each trip, i.e. the longer the trip the larger the bubble. Bubbles are shown only if the trip was longer than 5km.

The four quadrants show the four areas of operation with stats of how much driving is contained in each one. Note "low" efficiency is the higher numbers, not lower numbers.

• Low efficiency and High regen (yellow) - shorter trips in hilly areas
• Low efficiency and Low regen (pink) - slightly longer trips with stop-start in flat areas
• High efficiency and Low regen (blue) - the longest trips (largest dots), typically along highways/motoroways, flat and limited slowing down or braking
• High efficiency and High regen (green) - mid-length trips in varied environments

Some trips have had regen rates as high as 50%, and efficiency better than 100 Wh/km.

 

[eMotionRentals]

I notice that drivers like access to lots of regeneration, but passengers hate it.

I really try to drive smoothly, using the regen to slow down gently. I doubt my passengers really notice. But next time I've got a passenger, I'm going to ask. I've found that regen helps me drive more smoothly rather than racing up to the light and slamming on the brakes, which I've been known to do.

 

[etmax]

As some of the other commenters noted, I think it's marketing, primarily. I think Tesla is trying to make a car that many ICE owners will find comfortable and familiar. If every time you lift your foot of the accelerator, the vehicle "brakes" hard through regen, some are going to hate it and will be turned off. Many of my renters set my vehicles on low regen and turn on creep. Why? Because it's familiar to them. Most like their automatic transmission ICE vehicle. Yeah, they get less range and need to keep their foot on the brake. But change is hard, even if it's change for the better.

I remember taking my neighbor for a ride in my brand-new Model X. He constantly kept taking his foot completely off the accelerator in a a quick movement, thus jerking the car into slowing down. He hated it and could never stop doing it. It was not only an unpleasant ride for both of us, he will never buy a Tesla after that experience, I can assure you. He did NOT like it.

With that said, it seem that Tesla could offer vehicles with three settings: No Regen, Medium Regen, Heavy Regen. They could ship all vehicles with the middle setting activated. For people like my neighbor, they could choose No Regen with a warning that it will reduce their range. For people like us who want one-foot driving, we could all turn Heavy Regen on.

Just my two pennies....

All you need to do is not take your foot off the accelerator completely, and then you can adjust regen continuously between maximum and zero. Remember it's a linear control not a switch. I have maximum regen set but control the amount with accelerator all the time and almost never need brakes except for coming to a standstill. the beauty of it is that you can drive up a steep hill and then back down again and only use about 5-10% more energy than driving on level ground.

 

[VT_EE]

As some of the other commenters noted, I think it's marketing, primarily. I think Tesla is trying to make a car that many ICE owners will find comfortable and familiar. If every time you lift your foot of the accelerator, the vehicle "brakes" hard through regen, some are going to hate it and will be turned off. Many of my renters set my vehicles on low regen and turn on creep. Why? Because it's familiar to them. Most like their automatic transmission ICE vehicle. Yeah, they get less range and need to keep their foot on the brake. But change is hard, even if it's change for the better.

I remember taking my neighbor for a ride in my brand-new Model X. He constantly kept taking his foot completely off the accelerator in a a quick movement, thus jerking the car into slowing down. He hated it and could never stop doing it. It was not only an unpleasant ride for both of us, he will never buy a Tesla after that experience, I can assure you. He did NOT like it.

With that said, it seem that Tesla could offer vehicles with three settings: No Regen, Medium Regen, Heavy Regen. They could ship all vehicles with the middle setting activated. For people like my neighbor, they could choose No Regen with a warning that it will reduce their range. For people like us who want one-foot driving, we could all turn Heavy Regen on.

Just my two pennies....

The current M3 is rear wheel drive. Vehicle weight while breaking naturally shifts to the front wheels which causes traction problems when applying too much breaking force on the rear wheels. (try hard breaking on a bicycle in the rain using only the rear break to get an idea of what happens) I suspect this is the real reason why the Regen is much less than the Leaf and Bolt. They are both front-wheel drive.

 

[smythey]

The current M3 is rear wheel drive. Vehicle weight while breaking naturally shifts to the front wheels which causes traction problems when applying too much breaking force on the rear wheels.

Absolutely. One of the many reasons why the AWD M3 is the one to get. Regen should be a fair bit stronger.

 

[israndy]

That is a good point, why isn't the single axel drive Model 3 a front wheel drive model? Would allow me to tow it with two wheels down and allow me to have better control when the car starts to slide going around a turn by accelerating into the turn. At 5.1 seconds would we really loose that much 0-60 speed shifting the drive to the front wheels?

-Randy

 

[insaneoctane]

I think the last few posts are pure speculation. While AWD does offer more regen, theoretically, can ANYONE offer a shread of evidence that any Tesla AWD car has more regen than the RWD counterpart?

 

[cab]

I LOVED the regen on the Bolt (especially with the paddle) when I test drove it....I acclimated to it immediately and used the paddle several times during my somewhat lengthy test drive. Much stronger that my P85+ (or perhaps just much more effective at teh same level given the much lighter weight of the Bolt).

 

[dgpcolorado]

The current M3 is rear wheel drive. Vehicle weight while breaking naturally shifts to the front wheels which causes traction problems when applying too much breaking force on the rear wheels. (try hard breaking on a bicycle in the rain using only the rear break to get an idea of what happens) I suspect this is the real reason why the Regen is much less than the Leaf and Bolt. They are both front-wheel drive.

The bicycle analogy doesn't work (with 55,000+ miles of bicycle commuting, I am somewhat familiar with them). Tesla cars are quite heavy with a very low CG. Getting the rear wheels to lose traction in regen braking just doesn't happen under normal driving conditions. As discussed in another thread, if you lose traction on ice due to too much regen, you are going too fast for the conditions (and your tires).

Tesla's regen isn't less than the LEAF, to put it mildly; where did that one come from? (I've driven both for tens of thousands of miles.) Tesla regen is plenty for normal driving and very steep hills unless limited by the battery being full or cold. While a bit more regen might be nice on occasion, I find that the Tesla regen works well and I almost never have to use the friction brakes except for the last 5 mph or so when coming to a complete stop. And I drive very steep mountain hairpin turns every time I leave home. One nice thing about the Tesla system is that the lack of regen on the brake pedal makes for simplicity and reliability in the friction brake system.

I can understand the desire for a single pedal system that uses reverse torque from the motor to bring the car to a complete halt without use of the brake pedal, but that is quite different from suggesting that the Tesla regen is too little for normal driving — I'm puzzled by that sentiment expressed here.

 

[Zoomit]

The current M3 is rear wheel drive. Vehicle weight while breaking naturally shifts to the front wheels which causes traction problems when applying too much breaking force on the rear wheels. (try hard breaking on a bicycle in the rain using only the rear break to get an idea of what happens) I suspect this is the real reason why the Regen is much less than the Leaf and Bolt. They are both front-wheel drive.

While the load certainly shifts forward during braking, it's a common misconception that this significantly affects traction during regen. Physics tells a different story. I did the math in this thread, but if the 3LR regen deceleration were as strong as the Bolt (0.3g), the load would only shift forward by 4%. The load on the rear tires only decreases from 52% to 48%. That's not much and means that the rear tires would have basically the same ability to maintain traction during regen.

I don't expect that there will be any material difference in regen with the AWD variant.

I think the last few posts are pure speculation. While AWD does offer more regen, theoretically, can ANYONE offer a shread of evidence that any Tesla AWD car has more regen than the RWD counterpart?

I'd like to see this too!

Getting the rear wheels to lose traction in regen braking just doesn't happen under normal driving conditions.

+1, because physics.

 

[EV-lutioin]

I think the last few posts are pure speculation. While AWD does offer more regen, theoretically, can ANYONE offer a shread of evidence that any Tesla AWD car has more regen than the RWD counterpart?

I tend to agree, if that were the case then why does the Bolt have stronger regen than any AWD Tesla? Regardless of which wheels are powered, their should be plenty of mass to create strong regen.

 

[eMotionRentals]

While the load certainly shifts forward during braking, it's a common misconception that this significantly affects traction during regen. Physics tells a different story. I did the math in this thread, but if the 3LR regen deceleration were as strong as the Bolt (0.3g), the load would only shift forward by 4%. The load on the rear tires only decreases from 52% to 48%. That's not much and means that the rear tires would have basically the same ability to maintain traction during regen..

Doesn't load shifting front to rear somewhat depend upon the suspension stiffness?