Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...

[Mark Z]

There's no evidence he was watching a movie at all. The truck driver claimed the tesla driver was for the news but then later said he never actually saw anything but thought he might have "heard it"??? (as a car rips off its roof on his trailer). Basically he was lying...

When the Los Angeles high speed Tesla crash occurred, that car split in two and was on fire. Even then, the TV cameras clearly showed the center touch screen still active.

IMHO, what this semi truck driver may have seen (assuming he ran over to the vehicle after the crash) could have been "Harry Potter" AUDIO where the title was displayed on the screen. Movie on an iPhone or audio, this is an terrible accident and hopefully Tesla Motors will add semi-side recognition to the camera display. They recognize the rear of car/motorcycle/semi-trucks now, so it may be possible.

Daily Mail has picked up the story and put it at the top of their list:

Man dies in first fatal self-driving car crash

Once they get on a story, it keeps expanding with every little tidbit from every source. Everyone in the world will know that Tesla motorcars can drive themselves very soon.

 

[omarsultan]

There is no question that Tesla Autopilot needs a lot of improvement.

I am not sure I agree with this statement--depends how you mean it. Autopilot does what out does and Tesla had done a reasonable job explain the current capabilities. I can certainly get better, but I don't think the current implementation is flawed, just not as feature-complete as some folks want.

Again, as comparison, check out my post #202 for the caveats MB puts on their Distronic Plus (TACC) system. Here is the first section:

DISTRONIC PLUS does not react to: • people or animals • stationary obstacles on the road, e.g.

stopped or parked vehicles • oncoming and crossing traffic As a result, DISTRONIC PLUS may neither give warnings nor intervene in such situations.

There is a risk of an accident.

Always pay careful attention to the traffic situation and be ready to brake.

 

[Az_Rael]

There's no evidence he was watching a movie at all. The truck driver claimed the tesla driver was for the news but then later said he never actually saw anything but thought he might have "heard it"??? (as a car rips off its roof on his trailer). Basically he was lying...

I thought he said it was still playing after the car came to a stop in the field. (I assume this was after approaching the vehicle on foot). He said he didn't even see the Tesla as it ripped through his trailer so there was no way he would have heard it then.

 

[Matias]

Yes, and this would appear to be the Google StreetView that the Tesla driver would have seen. The truck would have been turning from the opposite direction at the intersection towards the gas station at 3:40pm, according to the police report. The truck driver's view is similarly open and clear of apparent obstacles unless conditions were obscured due to rain or fog etc.

Of course, StreetView images are taken from a somewhat higher vantage point than the position of a Model S driver.

Below is the Tesla driver's approximate view from the outside line:

View attachment 183507

The Truck driver's approximate view but from the outside lane instead of the left turn lane:

View attachment 183517

The view looking towards the oncoming Model S from where the truck would have been as it was turning left and driving perpendicular across US 27A (aka FL-500) onto 140th Court NE (toward the left side of the image):

View attachment 183520

Not directly related to topic, but this is very bad road design.

 

[omarsultan]

Cool article on how the MobilEye component of Autopilot works: Exclusive: The Tesla AutoPilot - An In-Depth Look At The Technology Behind the Engineering Marvel

 

[greentee]

Autopilot shouldn't have recognized the truck as a overhead sign and the Tesla driver should've paid attention to the road.

But more importantly, why did the truck driver cross the highway when he didn't have enough clearance to avoid this in the first place??

 

[xav-]

I think some folks need to stop blaming this entire thing on the truck driver (that he is lying etc). The idea that somehow because the guy was a navy seal he is less likely to be at fault than a driver with millions of miles behind the wheel is ridiculous.

 

[xav-]

Having spent the last 2 weeks driving around Scotland, my first time driving on the "opposite" side of the road, I do notice significant differences between roadways in US vs. UK. The use of round abouts are everywhere, more than in USA. Thus, there are more places for entering/exiting than our US standard ramps, or random perpendicular entrances from side streets with only a stop sign for the entering cars. UK roads are much narrower in a general sense on the A and B roads than US single lane highways. There is far less wiggle room for mistakes on UK roads versus wider lanes in US, requiring better driving skills in UK. It would seem that US roads allow for more careless driving and less attention to the rules of driving. Just my 2 pence!

You mean the wrong side of the road?

 

[greentee]

I think some folks need to stop blaming this entire thing on the truck driver (that he is lying etc). The idea that somehow because the guy was a navy seal he is less likely to be at fault than a driver with millions of miles behind the wheel is ridiculous.

No, it's because the truck driver didn't have the right of way in this situation.
The autopilot feature and the Tesla driver might have failed to avoid this but the truck driver seems to have started all this by making a turn without enough clearance, based on the info that we have so far.

 

[modamoda]

So sad news. Firstly, condolence to Joshua and his family.

Though Tesla is saying "beta", tesla is not the only automobile company who says "beta". As far as I know, almost every car company put "beta-like-words"(=disclaimer) on their driving assistant system manual(auto brake, ACC, Lane Keeping ... etc)

From Toyota's Lane Keeping article:

There are limitations to the system’s recognition capabilities and, due to road or weather conditions, it may not engage in certain circumstances.Drivers should always drive safely and never rely wholly on the system​

From Nissan's Emergency Braking article:

*These functions may not activate depending on factors such as condition of the lane and the speed of the vehicle due to the road environment and driving conditions.​

But I think Tesla should make it more clear about limitation of AP, when it works and when it does not. Currently, AP is like black box in drivers perspective. So some people are trying to find how it works by themselves: TACC/AP collision experiment on YouTube

An AEB company, WABCO's disclaimer is good example. They state detail about their AEB and its limitation, for example:

- OnGuardACTIVE (AEBS + ACC) does not react on oncoming traffic (overtaking vehicle on single lane road)
- OnGuardACTIVE (AEBS + ACC) does not react on crossing traffic
- AEBS may limit its performance when confronted with special driving situations. The performance might be limited to mitigating the collision, warning on forward collision or even no reaction. (and special situations described below in the article)​

We do know AP is not perfect and it's just less than 2 years. But by describing how AP works and not in detail(as far as they can) can make driver more cautious and also make Tesla more responsible of their cutting edge/double edge technology.


I hope I hear no more tragic stories on Tesla's technology.

 

[Johan]

No, it's because the truck driver didn't have the right of way in this situation.
The autopilot feature and the Tesla driver might have failed to avoid this but the truck driver seems to have started all this by making a turn without enough clearance, based on the info that we have so far.

Yes the Model S has right of way in this situation. But as my driving teacher always said: remember that in traffic you don't have any "rights", only obligations: to be careful, be attentive, to not drive faster than the posted speed limit OR faster than current conditions (light, rain, snow, wind, road surface etc) will allow safely, to yield when you're obligated and so on.

Now, assuming the Model S driver upheld all his obligations then the semi driver is responsible. But if the Model S driver drove way too fast or didn't pay attention to the road at all then it's less clear how to assign blame.

We just don't have enough information yet.

 

[Matias]

Of course radar can detect a stationary object, what Tesla does with that data is clearly nothing. Volvo and other cars have emergency braking systems that will stop the car from crashing into a wall. That's a stationary object. You're saying the Model S will go ahead and crash into a wall if you aim it towards one. That is a problem. That is a defect. How can it not be? Why is it that a Kia can see a wall but a Model S cannot?

The problem is, that there is a large open space below this trailer and because of this open space AP thought, that the radar return is false posite of overhead traffic sign.

 

[xav-]

No, it's because the truck driver didn't have the right of way in this situation.
The autopilot feature and the Tesla driver might have failed to avoid this but the truck driver seems to have started all this by making a turn without enough clearance, based on the info that we have so far.

But the guy did not even apply the brakes at all. He may have been going too fast as well.

 

[Johan]

The problem is, that there is a large open space below this trailer and because of this open space AP thought, that the radar return is false posite of overhead traffic sign.

It seems strange though, assuming that the road is flat, to interpret something solid that sits with its lower edge no more than 1 meter above the road as a sign. Signs hang way higher, allowing semi trucks to drive under them.

 

[greentee]

Yes the Model S has right of way in this situation. But as my driving teacher always said: remember that in traffic you don't have any "rights", only obligations: to be careful, be attentive, to not drive faster than the posted speed limit OR faster than current conditions (light, rain, snow, wind, road surface etc) will allow safely, to yield when you're obligated and so on.

Now, assuming the Model S driver upheld all his obligations then the semi driver is responsible. But if the Model S driver drove way too fast or didn't pay attention to the road at all then it's less clear how to assign blame.

We just don't have enough information yet.

That's why I also said that both autopilot and the tesla driver probably didn't do their job as well.
But the truck driver would still be at fault even if the accident didn't happen. This is what they called an "unsafe turn".

 

[greentee]

But the guy did not even apply the brakes at all. He may have been going too fast as well.

I think he simply didn't pay attention to the road at all and he paid for the price even though it seems to trigger from the truck driver's fault.

 

[Matias]

It seems strange though, assuming that the road is flat, to interpret something solid that sits with its lower edge no more than 1 meter above the road as a sign. Signs hang way higher, allowing semi trucks to drive under them.

Yes. I'm pretty sure there is a possibility to improve AEB software. As you said, there is rather large difference between overhead traffic sign and trailer, which has open space below it.

 

[Johan]

That's why I also said that both autopilot and the tesla driver probably didn't do their job as well.
But the truck driver would still be at fault even if the accident didn't happen. This is what they called an "unsafe turn".

My point is that the truck driver can't be at fault regardless of circumstances. If it was so then it would be impossible to ever make the turn. To exaggerate the argument let's say the Tesla came driving 160 mph (was just a blip in the distance as the truck initiated the turn) - then surely we couldn't blame the truck driver?

 

[Canuck]

My father is a lawyer who works in the insurance field...and a happy model s owner. After speaking with him, he assured me that the lawyers are salivating right now. In his words, the vultures are circling.

He implied lawyers would easliy run circles around and punch holes in Tesla's AP warnings to drivers consent form. I won't go through some of his accident cases that he cited to me but he makes some compelling points from a law standpoint.

After thinking about all of this objectively and taking off my fan glasses, I think we should brace for a very rough ride pertaining to AP and tesla in general.

I love tesla and everything they stand for. I support their vision and admire their innovative posture against tremendous odds. But I have to tell ya, this one hurts.

One thing my dad said that stood out to me was to take who's fault it was out of the equation. Lawyers will focus on AP...not the drivers. What's left is a beta version of highly innovative technology. Did the tech do its job according to its capabilities...yes probably. Was it a good decision to release this beta tech with its capabilities knowing that people's lives are at stake? I have a feeling we're about to find out.

I'm an insurance defence lawyer and have been for over 25 years. You need a "cause of action" to commence an action. So far, there is one cause of action with this unfortunate death. Please ask your dad how many "salivating lawyers" can sign up his administrator or executor in order to commence the legal action? Or, is he suggesting a class action over this one accident? If so, ask him if he thinks that class action is likely to be certified, and if so, what the damages are to the Plaintiffs (other than this lead Plaintiff, if that is what he is proposing).

Tesla has insurance and this case will be settled without seeing a court room, and the insurer for the truck driver will be paying for the majority of the settlement. But litigation is costly, and Tesla won't want any press or precedent, so they will be paying too.

That's my guess.

 

[Hells]

Terrible tragedy. I can just see how the news will spin this as "Tesla Auto-pilot kills american hero"