Final nail in the coffin for CHAdeMO in the US?

[Riggald]

...

There are close to zero 350kW or higher charge stations out “in the wild”. Actually, there are few public charge stations over 50kW “in the wild”, except Tesla.

Yep, it's a small number at the moment. When you posted, it was literally zero in the USA. A month later, there were two dozen chargers spread over 4 locations.

In Europe, 150kW+ chargers started to go-live last November. There are various "random" locations live, plus one joined-up long-distance corridor live (Berlin to Munich).

There is lots of PR promoting 350-400kW, but that is the capability of the charger, not what the vehicle can accept. Virtually ALL electric vehicles that use CCS, as well as CHAdeMO and GB/T, are limited to a maximum of about 45-75kW MAXIMUM, regardless of the capability of the charger
....
CCS-Combo2 - currently capable of 400kW (400A * 1000V), however the only car that can use more than about 75kW (Hyundai Ioniq) is the future Porsche MissionE at about 250kW maximum (400A * 625V estimated).

The Jaguar i-Pace can accept at least 100kW.

The i-Pace has a nominal 388V battery pack, with 450V peak voltage - which suggests a peak charge rate of 170kW - 197kW might be possible from the 350kW chargers.

The good news is that all the world’s public DC fast charging will ultimately be at 400kW (400 amps * 1000 volts). It’s important to note that there is only ONE car that has a battery over 500 volts that has been publicly announced; Porsche MissionE at 800 volt maximum.

I'm really interested as to why you feel those particular numbers will form the final destination for DC fast-charging.
Is it simply that CCS-Combo2 has that in its road-map, and there is no compelling reason to exceed these numbers?

 

[Riggald]

Since I made my previous post, Tesla has announced an increase to 200-250kW for the Tesla Supercharger. Since Tesla cars are limited to 400 volts maximum, that will mean that any power increase will be strictly an amperage increase from the present day 330-365 amps for 120kW.s

Have Tesla actually announced an increase to the per car peak charge rate? Is it possible that, since Superchargers feed a pair of chargepoints, that the 200-250kW rated Superchargers are simply able to feed both chargestations at the 120kW-per-vehicle charge rate, even when both chargestations are occupied?

In order to get roughly double the amperage through the existing two DC pins without overheating and without requiring large, bulky and heavy cables will likely require liquid cooling of the cable and plug.

Fortunately, the welding industry has had liquid cooled cables for decades (my dad had a liquid cooled Miller welder in the 1970s).

Well, liquid-cooled cables is how CCS is providing 350kW.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I can guess as well as anybody’s about what any of these companies will actually do, but it’s only a guess. The 6-7 years of “CCS taking over” is pretty obvious that it’s not “taking over”.

CHAdeMO just announced, as expected and as I predicted, its 400A * 1000V = 400kW protocol, v2.0.

Now it’s official... all the world’s public charge stations have a 400kW specification.

1) CHAdeMO - worldwide except China
2) GB/T - China
3) SAE CCS-Combo1 - North America, and now South Korea!
4) CCS-Combo2 - Europe, Australia, New Zealand
5) Weirdo new Type 2 and CCS-Combo2 with SAE J3029 protocol for North America. Yah! Another protocol. It is unknown to me whether this is “350-400kW” capable
6) Tesla Supercharger and Megacharger - private, worldwide, with several variations 120-1000kW (maybe even as high as 1.5MW)

 

[TonyWilliams]

CHAdeMO is still number one worldwide by a large margin:

Global
18030

Europe
6260

USA
2320

Asia
2020

Japan
7250

Other
180

 

[EfficientWatts]

5) Weirdo new Type 2 and CCS-Combo2 with SAE J3029 protocol for North America. Yah! Another protocol. It is unknown to me whether this is “350-400kW” capable

I'm guessing you're talking about J3068. For DC charging they will be using the CCS protocol.

 

[bro1999]

So seems to be that all EA sites will only have 1/2 a CHAdeMO station (split with a CCS plug). All the rest will be CCS.
A site in CT just went live, and it's 7x CCS and 1x CHAdeMO/CCS.
I'm glad if I use one of these EA stations, it won't be blocked by overheating '18 Leafs or Tesla owners with CHAdeMO adapters.
PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You

 

[wws]

On a different forum, I've had a long-running thread musing on when a Bolt EV could make a coast-to-coast run across the U.S. using only CCS charging. (Start/end points and actual route unspecified.) By zig-zagging a bit, it is _almost_ doable today. The longest remaining leg seems to be 261 miles - between Fillmore, Utah and Grand Junction, Colorado. So it is just outside of a Bolt EVs range - at least at highway speeds.

Then I realized one could already do a CHAdeMO-only coast-to-coast drive now using a Model S 100D with a CHAdeMO adapter. When the Model 3 supports the CHAdeMO adapter, the M3LR would be able to do it as well. Of course with Superchargers around, I'm not sure why anyone would want to. But it is doable.

I wonder who from either the CCS or the CHAdeMO camp will be the first to do it?

 

[Riggald]

On a different forum, I've had a long-running thread musing on when a Bolt EV could make a coast-to-coast run across the U.S. using only CCS charging. (Start/end points and actual route unspecified.) By zig-zagging a bit, it is _almost_ doable today. The longest remaining leg seems to be 261 miles - between Fillmore, Utah and Grand Junction, Colorado. So it is just outside of a Bolt EVs range - at least at highway speeds.

Then I realized one could already do a CHAdeMO-only coast-to-coast drive now using a Model S 100D with a CHAdeMO adapter. When the Model 3 supports the CHAdeMO adapter, the M3LR would be able to do it as well. Of course with Superchargers around, I'm not sure why anyone would want to. But it is doable.

I wonder who from either the CCS or the CHAdeMO camp will be the first to do it?

Going West to East, it's easily done by a Bolt - the 262 mile section is downhill.

 

[Riggald]

I'm guessing you're talking about J3068. For DC charging they will be using the CCS protocol.

View attachment 312636

Isn't this just CCS on Type-2 connector, then? i.e. what Europe has for CCS?

 

[miimura]

Isn't this just CCS on Type-2 connector, then? i.e. what Europe has for CCS?

J3068 is mechanically CCS2, but the AC charging has expanded voltages allowed and it has digital signalling to communicate EVSE capabilities. It also allows the EVSE to be connected to different voltages so that it could pass 347Y600V to one vehicle and 120Y208V to another, if the station manufacturer cared to implement it.

 

[Riggald]

J3068 is mechanically CCS2, but the AC charging has expanded voltages allowed and it has digital signalling to communicate EVSE capabilities. It also allows the EVSE to be connected to different voltages so that it could pass 347Y600V to one vehicle and 120Y208V to another, if the station manufacturer cared to implement it.

Isn't that digital signalling part of the CCS standard already?

Ah, right - it allows up to 600V single-phase AC, and also high-voltage multi-phase AC.
SAE Releases Charging Standard For Big Rigs / Trucks

 

[arg]

Isn't that digital signalling part of the CCS standard already?

Yes, but it's different digital signalling!

CCS has an RF carrier, IP packets, and XML messages, over the top of the J1772 PWM signal.
J3068 has a much simpler baseband signalling - replacing the J1772 PWM with similar sized pulses with LIN formatting.

 

[rhumbliner]

I’ve been following these discussions on charging standards for a couple of years and find them very illuminating. While I still know little about the internals of the various standards, I have a fair amount of experience with the externals of the standards.

By that I mean I’ve travelled North America extensively and have a great deal of experience with CHAdeMO, J-1772, Tesla SuperChargers and Tesla Destination Chargers (wall chargers). Since I frequent Canada and the Pacific Northwest, I purchased a Tesla CHAdeMO adapter and was immediately struck but how big and heavy the thing is. But since it’s common in that area I felt secure that I would be able to charge anywhere. My actual experience is that CHAdeMO chargers are usually out-of-order. Earlier in this thread @bro1999 was excited about this new charger: Brugh's Mill Country Store. But if you look at peoples’ experience you’ll see it’s not operational enough for a traveler to count on. That sums up my experience with CHAdeMO: you can’t count on them when making travel plans. Perhaps someone here can explain why, cuz I certainly don’t understand it. In any event, if they can’t make these more reliable I expect they’ll die an early death.

Now when I make travel plans I know I can count on the other chargers but I leave my CHAdeMO adapter at home. No point in lugging that beast around.

 

[Riggald]

On a different forum, I've had a long-running thread musing on when a Bolt EV could make a coast-to-coast run across the U.S. using only CCS charging. (Start/end points and actual route unspecified.) By zig-zagging a bit, it is _almost_ doable today. The longest remaining leg seems to be 261 miles - between Fillmore, Utah and Grand Junction, Colorado. So it is just outside of a Bolt EVs range - at least at highway speeds.

Then I realized one could already do a CHAdeMO-only coast-to-coast drive now using a Model S 100D with a CHAdeMO adapter. When the Model 3 supports the CHAdeMO adapter, the M3LR would be able to do it as well. Of course with Superchargers around, I'm not sure why anyone would want to. But it is doable.

I wonder who from either the CCS or the CHAdeMO camp will be the first to do it?

@wws - I'd be really interested to read that long-running thread - where is it?

 

[wws]

@wws - I'd be really interested to read that long-running thread - where is it?

When will a Bolt EV be able to travel coast to coast using only CCS charging?

I don't really have a dog in the fight though. Model 3 doesn't support CCS or CHAdeMO. The Volt doesn't need or have DCFC capability at all.