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Final nail in the coffin for CHAdeMO in the US?

Discussion in 'Supercharging & Charging Infrastructure' started by bro1999, Apr 18, 2018.

  1. bro1999

    bro1999 Active Member

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    Electrify America announced details of its plan to install 2,000 fast charging stations throughout the US by the end of 2019. According to their statement, CHAdeMO plugs will be limited to 50 kW, while the CCS stations will be 50-350 kW capable. Also, the 350 kW stations seem like they will be CCS only.

    I say good riddance. The less standards the better.
    Volkswagen's Electrify America To Shut Down CHAdeMO Aspirations?
     
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  2. cwerdna

    cwerdna Active Member

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    Funny you say that. CHAdeMO existed well before CCS did and is a world standard (same connector worldwide).

    Tesla Supercharger came next (and spurred 2 new connectors: one for North America and another similar to Mennekes Type 2 for Europe, mainly) but Tesla has obviously invested a LOT in their SC network worldwide.

    CCS spurred yet another two plug standards (Combo1 and Combo2) with lukewarm to virtually nil (e.g. GM Won't Fund CCS Fast-Charging Sites For 2017 Chevy Bolt EV) or nil support for its infrastructure. There's Nissan and BMW partner once again to expand DC Fast Charger access across the U.S. to benefit EV drivers, but BMW it seems has installed a bunch of lame 24 kW SAE Combo only DC chargers like the ones below:
    PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You
    PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You

    Even BMW and VW have ended up having to support 3 DC charging standards, depending on the market.

    BMW i3 (a CCS "supporter") for the US can have SAE Combo aka Combo1. European i3 has Combo2. Japanese market i3 has CHAdeMO on the rear fender. J1772 inlet was moved to the frunk.

    Even VW (another CCS "supporter") on the e-Golf has had to do something similar. I saw the Japanese market e-Golf at Tokyo Motor Show 2017. J1772 inlet was in the nose under the VW logo and CHAdeMO inlet was on the rear fender. Look under Charging at e-Golf | ハッチバック | フォルクスワーゲン公式. US market e-Golf has the J1772 inlet and optional SAE Combo on the rear fender.

    Some of the other CCS "supporters" don't even ship any vehicles in the US with DC charging at all.
     
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  3. bro1999

    bro1999 Active Member

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    Tesla can have their proprietary network. Whatever. But having multiple "public" standards only impedes EV adoption for the non-Tesla crowd. The sooner the CCS/CHAdeMO "wars" end, the better. Looking at the manufacturers that support CCS vice CHAdeMO, the charging "war" will likely come to an end fairly soon in the US at least. This is like HD-DVD/BLuRay all over again, with CHAdeMO being HD-DVD.
     
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  4. Gwgan

    Gwgan Almost a wagon

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    Not dead yet Where will the Recargo Network be built? How many chargers will it include? :
    How fast will your chargers be? :
     
  5. bro1999

    bro1999 Active Member

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  6. miimura

    miimura Well-Known Member

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    The US e-Golf has the charge port behind the ICE flap on the passenger side rear fender. Base 2016 SE has J1772 only, but every other year and trim has a SAE Combo port under that same flap. No North American or European e-Golf has had a front inlet of any kind. The Golf GTE is the only European Golf model with a front inlet, mostly because it is a plug-in hybrid and the gas still has to go in the rear side flap.

    However, your point is well taken that even e-Golf and i3 must have CHAdeMO in Japan, one way or another. I'm actually curious why they bothered selling in Japan at all.
     
  7. miimura

    miimura Well-Known Member

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    BTW, there was a correction regarding Electrify America. All of their CHAdeMO hardware will be 100kW (200A, 500V) capable, but will be restricted in firmware until sufficient testing is completed.

    Volkswagen's Electrify America To Shut Down CHAdeMO Aspirations?

     
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  8. SMAlset

    SMAlset Well-Known Member

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    #8 SMAlset, Apr 21, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
    Sounds like we will have charging stations not so unlike gas stations today with "pick your own amps" so to speak. Not everyone has the same need range/affordability in EVs so I don't see supporting multiple non-Tesla standards really an issue. When high capacity fast- charging EVs are more mainstream there will still be the need to charge lower capacity battery cars with restricted amps for many years to come. The issue with slower charging is how long they will be at the "pump" and so if people are smart they will take that into consideration when doing their charging layout. Maybe not a big deal in some areas of the country but here in high value land like Calif that's going to be a challenge for developers and I suspect fewer stalls dedicated to them at some point. Could see even some regulations about requiring X number of slower charge solutions for those traveling to avail themselves of.
     
  9. Zoltrix77

    Zoltrix77 Member

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    I personally prefer the CCS route, the fact that it combines AC and DC into one port just makes it easier for the consumer. The whole "frankenplug" argument is just plain silly. Sure the Tesla solution is elegant, but it wont be supporting 350kW. Most times you are using the plug, its at home, where the AC only portion is light.

    However, there really was no need for CCS1 and CCS2. There should have been a push to move North America to CCS type 2. Type 2 allows three phase charging (generally easier access to high power AC) in countries that have it. Sure, this is not common in the US, but Type 2 can also do what Type 1 can do also, just not the reverse.

    China can do what it wants, but the rest of the word would have had a global standard.
     
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  10. renim

    renim Active Member

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    This is the global standard, all car groups kowtow (design as native version)
    [​IMG]

    Chademo, Tesla, CCS 1, CCS 2. they are just regional standards now.
    Scale and cost advantage belongs to the strong, to the horde.

    CCS 1 and CCS 2 are the odd man out, all the global standards use CAN bus. CCS will never be cost effective vs Chademo, Tesla or GBT. never is a long time, perhaps it should be re-phrased as for as long as plugin ports are required, CCS will be a financial burden to the car companies that support it.

    Even the most ardent German CCS companies will be forced to adopt the twin port, CAN bus standards. Or they can leave China.
     
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  11. renim

    renim Active Member

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  12. TonyWilliams

    TonyWilliams Active Member

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    The ongoing “CCS will take over (from its last place position)” is alive and well in this thread.

    If I were to choose a worldwide standard FROM AN EXISTING ONE, it would China’s GB/T. Of course, it doesn’t really matter why, as folks supporting their brand of charging are sometimes fact resistant. It’s like debating competing religions.

    Much like 100 years of fossil fueled powered transportation, with gasoline, diesel, natural gas and others operating side-by-side, electric vehicle charging will operate just fine with Tesla Supercharger, Tesla Megacharger, CHAdeMO, SAE-CCS-Combo1, CCS-Combo2, GB/T, Chameleon, J1772, Menekkes Type 1 & Type 2, Tesla HPWC, and even future ones that we can’t yet predict.

    There are close to zero 350kW or higher charge stations out “in the wild”. Actually, there are few public charge stations over 50kW “in the wild”, except Tesla. Ionity is a consortium of German car manufacturers and Ford to build CCS 350kW infrastructure, and have planned 400 stations in north central Europe.

    The good news is that all the world’s public DC fast charging will ultimately be at 400kW (400 amps * 1000 volts). It’s important to note that there is only ONE car that has a battery over 500 volts that has been publicly announced; Porsche MissionE at 800 volt maximum.

    1) CHAdeMO is the world leader, with over 18,000 charging stations installed. It is also the only protocol that uses the same plug worldwide, and it’s also the oldest established protocol, While the protocol is currently limited to 200kW (400 amps * 500 volts), it is quite likely that the CHAdeMO Association will increase that to 400kW (400A * 1000V) this summer at their convention. These stations are primarily in Japan, North America and Europe, and CHAdeMO is one of two official DC fast charge protocols in EU countries. CHAdeMO is also the official standard in Japan, However Tesla Supercharger is also in Japan. CHAdeMO uses CAN bus control.

    2) Tesla Supercharger May pass up CHAdeMO for total quantity of charge stations, as they are very firmly in the number 2 position. Currently, the Tesla Supercharger is limited to 146kW (400 volts * 365 amps), and further limited to 120kW into an individual car. It’s hard to say what Tesla will do with Supercharger in the future, but it is interesting to know that the new Tesla Model 3 Long Range is 525 amp capable, hinting to 150-200kW capability. The future Tesla Megacharger is likely going to be their 1000 volt version, probably at 1.5MW (1500A * 1000V), several times faster than the second place competitor. Tesla Supercharger is worldwide, like CHAdeMO, albeit with 3 different plugs between Japan / North America, most of the rest of the world, and China. China Superchargers will be converted to GB/T. Tesla uses CAN bus control.

    3) CCS-Combo2 - currently capable of 400kW (400A * 1000V), however the only car that can use more than about 75kW (Hyundai Ioniq) is the future Porsche MissionE at about 250kW maximum (400A * 625V estimated). There is lots of PR promoting 350-400kW, but that is the capability of the charger, not what the vehicle can accept. Virtually ALL electric vehicles that use CCS, as well as CHAdeMO and GB/T, are limited to a maximum of about 45-75kW MAXIMUM, regardless of the capability of the charger. These stations are primarily in Europe, and CCS-Combo2 is one of two official DC fast charge protocols in EU countries. Combo1 uses PLC control.

    4) SAE-CCS-Combo1, uses a different plug than CCS-Combo2. Assuming that the SAE just rubber stamps what is being approved in Europe with Combo2, then they should also have 400kW (400A * 1000V) either now, or in the near future. Primarily in USA and Canada, and now South Korea. Australia will abaondon Combo1 in favor of Combo2. Combo2 uses PLC control.

    5) GB/T is in China only, however they were the first to approve 400kW (400A * 1000V). Listening to CCS advocates, nobody would ever know. GB/T uses CAN bus control.


    ***************

    AC charging:

    The “slow” AC charging options have been mostly standardized with J1772 / Type 1 among Japan, North America and Europe. This is a Japanese design by Yazaki. This design is limited to 8kW worldwide (30 amps), and 20kW in the US and Canada (80 amps).

    Neither Japan nor North America have ubiquitous 3 phase power in homes, but Europe does, so they are more heavily invested in Type 2 at 11kW, or up to 22kW (and even 43kW).

    Tesla uses Type 2 in Europe, plus also a unique plug in Japan and North America (and EVERY Tesla car is equipped with a J1772 adaptor in those markets).

    China will use GB/T.
     
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  13. Rocky_H

    Rocky_H Well-Known Member

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    I think there is a reason on this which is pretty practical, and it makes CCS1, CCS2, and GB/T all preferable to CHAdeMO. With cars that are using CHAdeMO, they have to have this huge charging port opening on the car, because the CHAdeMO doesn't include the inlet for AC charging, so the car has to fit a medium sized port for that, and a large bulky port for CHAdeMO beside it too. It's inefficient for design space and build cost. With CCS1, CCS2, and GB/T, they are all being sensible in combining function. It's just the one large port, and you use part of it for the AC portion, and the whole thing for fast DC.
     
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  14. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Well-Known Member

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    Nope, GB/T has separate ports for AC and DC charging.
     
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  15. renim

    renim Active Member

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    Chinese Tesla model X

    [​IMG]

    fortunately, Tesla supercharging, Chinese GB/T, and Chademo all use CAN bus, so its cheap and easy to adapt to each others standards.
     
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  16. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

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    I always use the analogy with diesel and gasoline: they coexist, and it's not a problem.

    The main reason people seem to want a single charging standard is to allow for rapid growth of coverage.
    But to me, that's short-term thinking.

    At significant volume, coverage won't be a problem. Compared to gasoline you need facilities in far fewer locations to have good coverage, and possible locations are greater in number.

    What BEV advocates should want are manufacturers that are committed to BEVs, and good charging networks. Standardization might help in the short term, but it also makes it easier for uncommitted manufacturers to sell compliance cars, and allows those manufacturers to push the responsibility for public charging onto other companies and organizations.
     
  17. bro1999

    bro1999 Active Member

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    The second 350 kW Electrify America station in VA seems to be (mostly) operational. Report of buggy software, but a Tesla owner successfully charged after contacting customer support. The VA station is listed as open on the EA website at least.

    Again, it is 3 dedicated CCS and 1x CCS/CHAdeMO shared station. Looks like CHAdeMO is gonna be treated like the red headed step child with all future EA installations, with what looks like a single obligatory CHAdeMO plug installed to satisfy regulations.
    PlugShare - Find Electric Vehicle Charging Locations Near You
     
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  18. Rocky_H

    Rocky_H Well-Known Member

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    Ah, I hadn't realized that about GB/T. Thanks. That's a little odd, since their AC connector looks so much like the European Type 2, I would have expected they would have handled it similarly for the DC connection.
    Huh. That reinforces why the CCS versions are more convenient than both CHAdeMO or GB/T.
     
  19. TonyWilliams

    TonyWilliams Active Member

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    #19 TonyWilliams, May 15, 2018
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
    The Germans decided to kludge on a couple of large DC pins to their Menekkes Type 2 plug in an effort to fit any future electrical conductive connection into an existing body panel used for a gasoline or diesel access port. The SAE just rubber-stamps whatever they do. Actually, the SAE just rubber-stamped the Menekkes Type 2 for three phase charging.

    There is more unused space in that plug than what Tesla uses in total. I find it to be a horrid example of committee design focused on simple to design and expedient to implement with an existing base design. In other words, the opposite of a Tesla design.

    Companies that are dedicated to building EVs are not concerned about fitting the hardware in a petroleum access port.

    Since I made my previous post, Tesla has announced an increase to 200-250kW for the Tesla Supercharger. Since Tesla cars are limited to 400 volts maximum, that will mean that any power increase will be strictly an amperage increase from the present day 330-365 amps for 120kW.

    In order to get roughly double the amperage through the existing two DC pins without overheating and without requiring large, bulky and heavy cables will likely require liquid cooling of the cable and plug.

    Fortunately, the welding industry has had liquid cooled cables for decades (my dad had a liquid cooled Miller welder in the 1970s).
     
  20. Phillip L

    Phillip L Gas Passer

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    Every Chademo that I have used in Canada has been a Chademo connection on one side of the unit and a CCS on the other side. Why can’t that be the way the build out occurs.?
     
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