Finally 120KW Supercharging!

[Lloyd]

Everyone should have an expectation that for Tesla to evolve will continue to improve their product. They made some statements that they would provide "upgrades" to those enrolled in the service contracts. That said, I would expect them to provide upgrades only when the cost is not too outrageous, and the benefit is worth the expendature in PR, customer loyalty etc. I don't believe that anyone should expect their car to be kept up to the standard of a new release. For those that want an upgrade not included, a pay for upgrade should be available. Once again....... communicaiton could be better from Tesla!!!

 

[Zythryn]

and you were also never told that your car is not a prototype.

I think the point is that we have never been told one way or the other.
Because I haven't heard anything from Tesla yet, and they have not acknowledge this publicly, I'm not convinced this is the case.
Especially since we have at least one VIN, that is getting the full 120 kW, which is lower than another VIN number that is not getting the full 120 kW.

Listen I am just fine if it turns out that early models cannot be super charged as quickly as later models.
What is bothering me is the lack of clear information from Tesla and I would much rather hear something official then this piecemeal information with different people getting different information.

 

[apacheguy]

At risk of bringing this discussion far off topic, let me just note that Sigs are production-series Model S's (aka not prototype).

What really irks me here is that I've called Tesla twice regarding the 90 kw limit and they have not mentioned anything about hardware being an issue. Also, at the end of the day, Tesla has always said 120 kw would be a software fix "fully rolled out to customers" in their press release. That is proving to be misleading.

 

[Dave EV]

I've got a Samsung Galaxy S3. It was an excellent phone last year and it's still an excellent phone, even though the S4 has a few tweaks that would be nice to have but in no way diminish the S3's usefulness and capabilities. Do I demand Samsung give me a free upgrade?

That's the wrong analogy here if you are going to use the Galaxy S3. The correct one is that my Galaxy was stuck on Android 4.1 for ages - well after newer versions of Android was released for other phones, and even the S3 in other markets. It's still stuck on an old version of Android after finally getting updated to 4.3 a few weeks ago. Because of this experience I am not going to be buying any more Android phones except for directly through Google - who does provide timely updates for their phones.

This sense of entitlement does seem a bit strange. You bought a MY1 car, so of course there will be improvements down the line.

It's not about a "sense of entitlement". It's about delivering on promises made. If there were caveats to those promises, they should have been made well known to avoid disappointment down the line. Especially when those most disappointed will be your earliest adopters (Sig owners).

 

[stopcrazypp]

The correct one is that my Galaxy was stuck on Android 4.1 for ages - well after newer versions of Android was released for other phones, and even the S3 in other markets.

For a smart phone, you have a reasonable expectation to get at least one update during the life of the smart phone. For cars, there's no such expectation, esp. for hardware (Tesla is providing software updates for all cars so it's not an issue there).

The main issue seems to be clarity/communication (for example a car before and after in the VIN sequence having 120kW charging) and Tesla doing changes within the model year (as they have pointed out at the start that they would do so). If the break line was at MY2012 vs MY2013, would people still be complaining and would there still be an expectation of getting the same hardware capabilities? I know of no car where this happens except for recalls (even for changes happening mid-model year, which I remember did happen for some traditional automakers).

 

[wycolo]

How can I get irked about a 5 minute difference in time spent at an SC? The mere fact that due to there being an SC there means I can haul a$$ in that direction thereby saving much more than 5 minutes overall.

NOT an Irkle.

With Dec 7, 2012 production date I'm assuming my MS is 90 kw limited.

"200 miles in half hour" is a good factoid for consumer take away. Closer to the mark than "200 miles in an hour" so if JQPublic can remember 1. the name TESLA and 2. "200 miles in half hour" then I'm a very happy driver/investor indeed.
--

 

[apacheguy]

How can I get irked about a 5 minute difference in time spent at an SC? The mere fact that due to there being an SC there means I can haul a$$ in that direction thereby saving much more than 5 minutes overall.

Guys, I've gone over this about 6 times already. The difference is more like 10-15 mins. Not going to explain that here as I've already documented that elsewhere and just a few posts back.

 

[qwk]

Why would they? When the Model S came out we all thought that 90 kW charging was amazing. I don't remember anyone communicating their dissatisfaction with that. Then when they said the plug could support 120 kW and they could route all of the supercharger power to one car, that was even more amazing. It's likely they incorporated the necessary changes into the cars to support that at the same time.

Who knows whether handling 120 kW needs totally new power electronics and cabling, for example?


This sense of entitlement does seem a bit strange. You bought a MY1 car, so of course there will be improvements down the line. Did it meet your needs and expectations last year? I don't see Gen 1 Leaf owners demanding a heat pump just because the Gen 2 has it. Roadster sigs are a lot more crude than the later variants, but part of the deal with having the first cars off the line is they may well not be as refined as the end of the run.

I've got a Samsung Galaxy S3. It was an excellent phone last year and it's still an excellent phone, even though the S4 has a few tweaks that would be nice to have but in no way diminish the S3's usefulness and capabilities. Do I demand Samsung give me a free upgrade?

I agree 100%. The roadster went through these rapid hardware changes very quickly, so I don't understand how anyone who bought a very early Model S could be blind to this.

 

[wycolo]

> The difference is more like 10-15 mins. [apacheguy]

I know, thus: "saving much more than 5 minutes overall". If you want, I can even drive faster!! But that only 'cause its so much fun. Basically, I'm not one to look a gift horse in the mouth - but that's just me.
--

 

[DrComputer]

I have to drive to a client in Santa Maria tomorrow and will take my Sig (#272) by the Beulton SuperCharger on my way home. I'll add my data point to the list and see if my Sig is limited to 90kw

 

[Cottonwood]

Guys, I've gone over this about 6 times already. The difference is more like 10-15 mins. Not going to explain that here as I've already documented that elsewhere and just a few posts back.

I'd love to look at your basic data for a Sig and a more recent production car. Please post again or provide a link. I have posted my charge curve of my Sig#37 on a 120 kW capable Supercharger. It is below for reference. BTW, I use the conversion that Tesla seems to use on Superchargers, 300 W-hr/mi, so 120 kW is 400 mph and 90 kW is 300 mph. As stated earlier, this plot is a superposition of two charge sessions, and that is the cause of the discontinuity.

 

[apacheguy]

I'd love to look at your basic data for a Sig and a more recent production car. Please post again or provide a link. I have posted my charge curve of my Sig#37 on a 120 kW capable Supercharger. It is below for reference. BTW, I use the conversion that Tesla seems to use on Superchargers, 300 W-hr/mi, so 120 kW is 400 mph and 90 kW is 300 mph. As stated earlier, this plot is a superposition of two charge sessions, and that is the cause of the discontinuity.

I will post a full charge curve demonstrating my point when I road trip in ~2 weeks.

But you can easily see it from your data. It took you 45 minutes to get up to 80% SOC and you didn't even start at 0. It's supposed to take 30 minutes as advertised by TM.

Correction: TM states 40 minutes to 80% from empty. However, you were not empty and started with 40 miles. Hence, you can still see how it will take substantially longer than the mere 5 minute discrepancy others are stating.

 

[Kraken]

Apacheguy, you've got data against a five minute difference, others using 90 and 120 charging have data for only a five minute difference. You've also said yours isn't getting the performance that it should with 90 kw charging. Maybe your data is off because something is up with your car or there was something else going on that day that was hindering performance of that supercharger.

the biggest thing I've got going for you is that I was getting 300 mph charge at 166 miles of charge. Meaning that I was getting much better than the discussed tapering curve for 120. It might also point out that every day could var somewhat ssignificantly based on other factors. Maybe colder, as it was for me, helped maintain that tapering curve from being as sharp.

 

[apacheguy]

Apacheguy, you've got data against a five minute difference, others using 90 and 120 charging have data for only a five minute difference. You've also said yours isn't getting the performance that it should with 90 kw charging. Maybe your data is off because something is up with your car or there was something else going on that day that was hindering performance of that supercharger.

Valid point. Maybe this is an issue isolated to my car.

Having said that, I would like to see better data showing the 5 min difference. Cottonwood's charging curve demonstrates a > 5 min difference the way I read it.

 

[Cottonwood]

Valid point. Maybe this is an issue isolated to my car.

Having said that, I would like to see better data showing the 5 min difference. Cottonwood's charging curve demonstrates a > 5 min difference the way I read it.

You are correct. To add that 0 to 40 mile time at 300 mph, its 40/300*60 = 8 minutes. The difference between my 45 minutes and Tesla's claimed 40 minutes to get to 80% is 5 minutes; 5+8 =13. Therefore my data shows an extra 13 minutes in my Sig#37 over Tesla's idealized curve. It would be nice to see some real data like this from a late 85 on a 120 kW Supercharger. Tesla's web page has always been pretty aggressive. They even show 200 miles in 30 minutes before the graph that is closer to 40 minutes; inconsistency on the same web page! I bet a new 85 can't quite get 80% in 40 minutes.

We need more data on other Sigs and late edition 85's.

BTW, I am v5.6; I think the only difference between that and v5.8 is the air suspension height stuff.

 

[brianman]

and you were also never told that your car is not a prototype.

I was also never told that my car is not a commercial airliner. Relevance?

 

[cinergi]

Perhaps the crux of the problem is that there's no concept of Model Year with the Model S? 2012 car has features X, Y, Z. 2013 has XYZ plus ABC. We 90-limited-customers don't even KNOW what the differences are and in some cases paid the same price as others but the others have the better feature set. Even worse, Tesla can't even tell us what's what.
When I buy a Galaxy S3, I know what I'm getting. When the S4 comes out, I know what's new. There's a clear delineation. I have a clear and informed choice. Not so in this case.

 

[yobigd20]

I was also never told that my car is not a commercial airliner. Relevance?

Meaning sigs were essentially built early on before vendor agreements were finalized. Thus, things changed as expected and later vehicles are using "better" parts. They had to scramble early on and when they didn't have enough parts they just used whatever they could, including the same parts used in the prototype models.

 

[apacheguy]

Perhaps the crux of the problem is that there's no concept of Model Year with the Model S? 2012 car has features X, Y, Z. 2013 has XYZ plus ABC. We 90-limited-customers don't even KNOW what the differences are and in some cases paid the same price as others but the others have the better feature set. Even worse, Tesla can't even tell us what's what.
When I buy a Galaxy S3, I know what I'm getting. When the S4 comes out, I know what's new. There's a clear delineation. I have a clear and informed choice. Not so in this case.

+1. Well said. Let me just add that the Sigs actually paid more (Sig-tax), but that is a different topic.

 

[digitaltim]

Just rolled into DE supercharger nearly "empty" and got a good rate...

Sig737/VIN628 so a pretty early delivery.

...and apologies for the bad pic - would have snapped the mobile app but my power button is flaky.

...190 miles added in ~45'.