First L3 Self Driving Car - Audi A8 world premieres in Barcelona

[R.S]

That was my point. A new tech car with old tech fuel is a nonstarter.
My 2015 Tesla can do everything their press release touts up to 90 mph

"A Tesla (or Volvo XC90, BMW 5-Series etc…) can pretty much drive itself in traffic, but you have to monitor it. In the Audi you just press a button, and where applicable, the new A8 will allow you to indulge in whatever it is you do in a car when not actually driving. Sweating nervously and eyeballing the car in front, no doubt. This is the difference between level two and level three autonomy, fact fans."

No it can't your car, like mine, is level 2 autonomous. This Audi is level 3. The closest todays Teslas get is with the summon feature, but summon is what, 5mph at best? The Audi system is superior right now.

IDK if an Audi bullied at you at school, or stole your fiancé... you have to accept the facts here. That is still is an old fashioned petrol car and could never love her like you did, isn't the topic here.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

So... Audi will be able to predict 15 seconds in advance that it won't be able to function?

I'm just wondering about the "disengaging due to conditions" 15 seconds in advance.
How does it know that it will have to disengage 15 seconds ahead of time?
If it knows 15 seconds ahead, why can't it just figure out what to do?
I know the max speed is 37 mph (which is pretty much useless for daily driving) but still, a lot can happen in 15 seconds.

I can imagine this scenario:
- car thinks it won't be able to handle the situation, gives a 15 second warning to take over
- car crashes 3 seconds later because some fool pulled into your lane.
- last gasp from the pile of Audi wreckage on the side of the road 12 seconds later "Please take over control of the car"

You guys - who clearly have not followed Audi during the ~TEN years they have been working (in public) on the system launching in fall 2017 - do not understand.

You think in Tesla Autopilot terms still. You are not grasping the paradigm shift here. Audi has been working on this longer than Tesla had been making cars.

The car does not have to predict "15" (actial number in Audi may be 10) seconds ahead. It will be capable of handling anything a human driver would (and more) in those seconds.

It will avoid a deer. (Or at least try responsibly well, never guaranteed for a human either.)

It will avoid a fool pulling into your lane.

It will avoid a perpendicular truck.

All it "predicts" is from the map, speed etc. what artificial limits are set for it and enforces those. If it sees roadworks ahead that it thinks are outside its defined, artificial legal responsibility limits, it will still drive reliably until you take charge, not crash into them.

It is not a driver's aid, it is a real self-driving car - that is just self-driving within that sandbox that has been defined for it.

 

[J1mbo]

All it "predicts" is from the map, speed etc. what artificial limits are set for it and enforces those. If it sees roadworks ahead that it thinks are outside its defined, artificial legal responsibility limits, it will still drive reliably until you take charge, not crash into them.

As self-driving as a train, then. Just replace metal rails with logical rails from an always out-of-date map.

 

[techmaven]

You guys - who clearly have not followed Audi during the ~TEN years they have been working (in public) on the system launching in fall 2017 - do not understand.

You think in Tesla Autopilot terms still. You are not grasping the paradigm shift here. Audi has been working on this longer than Tesla had been making cars.

The car does not have to predict "15" (actial number in Audi may be 10) seconds ahead. It will be capable of handling anything a human driver would (and more) in those seconds.

It will avoid a deer. (Or at least try responsibly well, never guaranteed for a human either.)

It will avoid a fool pulling into your lane.

It will avoid a perpendicular truck.

All it "predicts" is from the map, speed etc. what artificial limits are set for it and enforces those. If it sees roadworks ahead that it thinks are outside its defined, artificial legal responsibility limits, it will still drive reliably until you take charge, not crash into them.

It is not a driver's aid, it is a real self-driving car - that is just self-driving within that sandbox that has been defined for it.

Are you on the Audi development team? If not, you seem to be ascribing far more to this version of ADAS than is there... we do not yet have the full list of caveats from Audi.

Given that they are using the same Mobileye EyeQ3 chip that is in Tesla’s AP1, there is a question about how much of the ADAS is Mobileye and how much is the OEM. Sensor fusion and object detection, I believe, are part of the Mobileye chip. The immediate path and overall route stuff I think is part of the OEM software. What do you think is the break down where Audi has been working for years versus Mobileye?

The ability of the EyeQ3 to recognize perpendicular trucks may be the same as Tesla’s AP1 using the same chip. The difference is that at 37 mph, with LIDAR seeing maybe 500 ft ahead, there is roughly 10 seconds of possible detection time. Have to give 4 seconds for braking time for worse case. Probably about 5-6 seconds of reaction time. The real difficulty is the figuring out that something that isn’t in your path upon first detection will be in your path eventually. I suspect this generation of Audi system won’t handle a cross perpendicular truck st 37 mph in all circumstances. Likely it is geofenced to not allow operation on all divided highways that allow a crossing.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

As self-driving as a train, then. Just replace metal rails with logical rails from an always out-of-date map.

What do comments like that help...

The system is self-driving within its geofence - and in reality is capable of far more than it will initially be allowed to do. That includes handling far more exceptions than a train ever has to face.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Are you on the Audi development team? If not, you seem to be ascribing far more to this version of ADAS than is there... we do not yet have the full list of caveats from Audi.

Given that they are using the same Mobileye EyeQ3 chip that is in Tesla’s AP1, there is a question about how much of the ADAS is Mobileye and how much is the OEM. Sensor fusion and object detection, I believe, are part of the Mobileye chip. The immediate path and overall route stuff I think is part of the OEM software. What do you think is the break down where Audi has been working for years versus Mobileye?

The ability of the EyeQ3 to recognize perpendicular trucks may be the same as Tesla’s AP1 using the same chip. The difference is that at 37 mph, with LIDAR seeing maybe 500 ft ahead, there is roughly 10 seconds of possible detection time. Have to give 4 seconds for braking time for worse case. Probably about 5-6 seconds of reaction time. The real difficulty is the figuring out that something that isn’t in your path upon first detection will be in your path eventually. I suspect this generation of Audi system won’t handle a cross perpendicular truck st 37 mph in all circumstances. Likely it is geofenced to not allow operation on all divided highways that allow a crossing.

I am not inside Audi anymore than pretty much any of us are inside Tesla. We still discuss what we closely follow with some accuracy...

This system has been in the public (in development) for a very long time. Trust me, it handles perpendicular obstacles.

It will ship in a highway form so obviously not yet city traffic for this sensor suite. But the system underneath is Audi's Level 4 system.

Audi has been working on this for a long time. Their driver's aids are meaningless comparisons really. The new A8 is the first time their self-driving tech ships.

That's why it matters.

 

[WarpedOne]

You talk a lot in a present tense.

Trust me, it handles perpendicular obstacles.

You know, because, reasons ...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

You talk a lot in a present tense.

You know, because, reasons ...

Are you saying Audi would take legal responsibility for a car's driving that does not handle perpendicular obstacles?

Or do you doubt their decade of work simply because it is not yet in the shops?

I base my view on following Audi's work. If you have done the same and disagree, fine. If not, I suggest you at least look into it.

 

[GSP]

I think this article clears up a lot things, and of course opens up lots of new questions.

Meet Audi’s new tech flagship: The 2018 A8 sedan

From what I've read from various articles is the A8 will go on sale in Europe THIS fall, and it will go on sale in the US in the spring or summer of 2018.

As to L3 it still needs regulatory approval. In germany they did pass a law allowing for L3, and L4 driving but it only pertains to the drivers.

Audi A8 poised to benefit from Germany's new self-driving law

So it's definitely not what I'd consider vaporware, and it's not a long ways off.

Lots of good info in the Arstechnica article, including:

"Should the driver not take back control, the car will come to a stop in its lane with the hazard lights on and will then call the emergency services."

and

"When asked why the A8 can't cruise along autonomously at freeway speeds on divided highways like Jack or the Bosch level 3 autonomous tech demonstrator we recently experienced, Audi Vice President of Automated Driving Alejandro Vukotich told us that it has to do with being able to safely pull over and stop by the side of the road (as opposed to in-lane), as well as lacking a completely redundant steering system."

Thanks for posting.

GSP

 

[GSP]

It is highly possible that the Super Cruise will arrive in the US before Audi's system. It does not have a 37 mph limit and it is hands free. It only requires that you point your head towards the road now and then based on speed. If the driver does not respond, it will take action to safely control the car to a stop and call for help. So perhaps L3.5? Some could argue L4. The press have driven it on the freeway.

Like Tesla's autopilot, Supercruise is an L2 system, not L3 like Audi's. The driver needs to monitor the driving environment for obstacles in the lane or other hazards, and take over when he or she sees that continuing down the center of the lane would not be a good idea.

This is just like cruise, or ACC, only "super" since it also maintains the car in the center of the lane. I like the name "supercruise" since I think it conveys its ability to the general public better. Most people do not know how to safely use an aircraft autopilot, but are very familiar with cruise control.

GSP

 

[WarpedOne]

Are you saying Audi would take legal responsibility for a car's driving that does not handle perpendicular obstacles?

I'm saying talk is cheap and marketing is BS.
We will know what Audi is capable of where there are those Audis driving around by themselves and preventing such situations IRL.

What legal responsibility Audi will really take we will see only when it will really take responsibility for some major accident and not legal-talk-itself-out-of-the-problem

This is (part of) the company that gave the world defeat device.

 

[McRat]

Like Tesla's autopilot, Supercruise is an L2 system, not L3 like Audi's. The driver needs to monitor the driving environment for obstacles in the lane or other hazards, and take over when he or she sees that continuing down the center of the lane would not be a good idea.

This is just like cruise, or ACC, only "super" since it also maintains the car in the center of the lane. I like the name "supercruise" since I think it conveys its ability to the general public better. Most people do not know how to safely use an aircraft autopilot, but are very familiar with cruise control.

GSP

We will see what will actually be released on the 2018 v1 Super Cruise.

In theory, here's the list of features:

Geomapped.

1. Navigation driven (changes lanes and takes interchanges).
2. Full speed.
3. No driver control whatsoever is demanded in the geomapped areas when the car is fully operational.
4. Night vision, long range, threat identifier/AEB. Can ID cars, humans, and animals in pitch black at twice the headlight range.
5. Unresponsive driver mode will try to pull to the shoulder if possible, otherwise it stops in the lane. Very extensive coverage of their emergency help system.

The Cadillac AEB system will already see cross traffic threats, front and rear, and applies 100% max braking. This is already in place and works well.

We will see how many of the systems are actually released at first. Items 1 and 5 I've not seen demonstrated.

 

[lunitiks]

@McRat none of that matters if we're talking about SAEs levels of automation. SuperCruise is designed to keep the driver responsible by monitoring her face - just like Tesla "monitors" you by nagging you with steering wheel feedback.

L2 does pedal and steering (of course based on sensor input and algos), and can be as advanced and precise as you like. It is not, however, responsible for monitoring the environment for you.

L3 is pr definition designed to be responsible for ALL OBJECT AND EVENT DETECTION AND RESPONSE. Within a limited operational domain. You as a driver is not supposed to do anything except if the system asks (orders) you to.

L4 goes one step further and takes care of the fallback. Still only available within a limited operational domain.

L5 goes all in, and is not limited by operational domains.

 

[McRat]

@McRat none of that matters if we're talking about SAEs levels of automation. SuperCruise is designed to keep the driver responsible by monitoring her face - just like Tesla "monitors" you by nagging you with steering wheel feedback.

Luckily, I don't drive with an SAE engineer in the passenger seat, so SAE classifications do not apply to me. Cars perform as they perform. Naming them or spec'g them, or publishing brochures is not actually a function, it called marketing.

Are you 100% sure that keeping the driver in the correct position for airbag and crumple zones is a stupid idea? I'm not so sure. Somebody laying down in the back seat is going to get wadded up feet first against the windshield with at least broken legs as they slip under a harness with no submarine belt.

 

[lunitiks]

Updated my post.

 

[J1mbo]

The system is self-driving within its geofence - and in reality is capable of far more than it will initially be allowed to do. That includes handling far more exceptions than a train ever has to face.

I guess we'll never know how truly capable it is then. How convenient!

 

[stopcrazypp]

You guys - who clearly have not followed Audi during the ~TEN years they have been working (in public) on the system launching in fall 2017 - do not understand.

You think in Tesla Autopilot terms still. You are not grasping the paradigm shift here. Audi has been working on this longer than Tesla had been making cars.

The car does not have to predict "15" (actial number in Audi may be 10) seconds ahead. It will be capable of handling anything a human driver would (and more) in those seconds.

It will avoid a deer. (Or at least try responsibly well, never guaranteed for a human either.)

It will avoid a fool pulling into your lane.

It will avoid a perpendicular truck.

All it "predicts" is from the map, speed etc. what artificial limits are set for it and enforces those. If it sees roadworks ahead that it thinks are outside its defined, artificial legal responsibility limits, it will still drive reliably until you take charge, not crash into them.

It is not a driver's aid, it is a real self-driving car - that is just self-driving within that sandbox that has been defined for it.

Lots of good info in the Arstechnica article, including:

"Should the driver not take back control, the car will come to a stop in its lane with the hazard lights on and will then call the emergency services."

and

"When asked why the A8 can't cruise along autonomously at freeway speeds on divided highways like Jack or the Bosch level 3 autonomous tech demonstrator we recently experienced, Audi Vice President of Automated Driving Alejandro Vukotich told us that it has to do with being able to safely pull over and stop by the side of the road (as opposed to in-lane), as well as lacking a completely redundant steering system."

Thanks for posting.

GSP

The quoted info by Audi is in stark contrast to the characterization by @AnxietyRanger. Production version sounds considerably less capable than the prototypes and that the reason why it's limited to the given speed is not regulation, but rather because the hardware is less capable.

I guess that's why we should all wait for the real world tests and reviews, not just basing things on what prototypes might have done.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@stopcrazypp I wouldn't put too much emphasis on that characterization. The production version of considerably more constrained than the prototypes, but the reasons are simple: they are selecting a very conservative subset of the system to take responsibility for. The system is based on "Jack" - and most notably is the first car based on "Jack". (It has another name, has had for many years, look it up and read more.)

They are not taking responsibility for the production version changing lanes. That is a liability decision, not a capability one.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I guess we'll never know how truly capable it is then. How convenient!

All you have to do is go to YouTube and see what the Audi system is capable of. With third-party people on driver's seat, not just Elon directed movies...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I'm saying talk is cheap and marketing is BS.

This is an Audi thread, but sure, we agree that applies to Tesla.

This is (part of) the company that gave the world defeat device.

And they deserve a lot of crap for that. But the thing is, this is about autonomous, and that is different.

Audi is one of the most serious players in autonomous and has been at this much longer than Tesla - and given their system to journalists to "drive"...