For AWD owners wanting a P3D-

[Phlier]

Stealth P reflash option/upgrade is supposedly coming soon for those who will want it (and who own at least earlier aka <Jan 2019, LR AWDs). It will supposedly be fairly inexpensive... ~2-3K USD.

I did not hear this from a number of SC and Mobile techs, who do not fairly routinely apply it today and were completely unfamiliar with the matter.

It's really too bad that Tesla started using a different rear motor (990) in the LR AWD starting the first of this year, so they could offer it to *all* LR AWD owners that would like to pay the money for the upgrade.

But at least it'll be a nice thing to offer for early adopters.

I hope your sources are correct!

 

[holmgang]

Norway have and has had tons of P3D- inventory

 

[anon52695]

This is a post from the model 3 motor catalog, helpful information.

dennistdk, Tuesday at 1:23 PM
I posted this in another thread some time ago, but it might belong here better (official EU car registrations that includes offical max. motor power output of the different models).

I have now also gotten info from the EU registrations of P3D-/Stealth as the first were delivered a month ago in EU, and they are the same max. power output as Performance (e.g. they weren't registered as AWD and then upgraded.)

LR-RWD (registered after 5% upgrade in March) - 980.
Rear at 225kW / 306 hp(M)

LR-AWD (registered before 5% upgrade in March) - Mix of 980/990
Front at 150kW / 204 hp(M)
Rear at 190kW / 258 hp(M)
Total: 340kW / 462 hp(M)

LR-AWD (registered after 5% upgrade in March) - 990
Front at 155kW / 211 hp(M)
Rear at 195kW / 265 hp(M)
Total: 350kW / 476 hp(M)

LR-P (registered before 5% upgrade in March) - 980
Front at 150kW / 204 hp(M)
Rear at 205kW / 279 hp(M)
Total: 355kW / 483 hp(M)

LR-P (registered after 5% upgrade in March) and P3D- (first EU deliveries in August 2019) - 980
Front at 155kW / 211 hp(M)
Rear at 205kW / 279 hp(M)
Total: 360kW / 489 hp(M)

Metric horsepower (1 hp(M) = 735.5W), not imperial/mechanical (1 hp(I) = 745.7W) as these are EU registrations.

Currently AWD's output around 390 hp(M) ~ 287 kW (based on dynos etc.), so around 20% below the max. registed power output.
Also interesting is that the LR-RWD rear motor has 20KW more than the one in Performance (as they are both 980s - or 970 on some?).

Anyways - it gives some possibilities for an update to both Performance (~5%) and AWD (~20%) if they wanted to. Musk teased the Model 3 Ludacris update some time ago - and the 20% update for AWD was already installed in March/April a few EU AWD's (not the Performance software, but a special +20% AWD power increase software without track mode etc.).

 

[Msjulie]

.... which is why there is an aftermarket for spacers....because apparently there is a significant enough market of Performance buyers that prefer 18" wheels....

Or put another way, specifically did NOT want 20s like me

 

[Msjulie]

A 990 is NOT physically a 980. It's some cheaper version they finally decided it make MFG sense to have in production, possibly because it took that long to get one that was cheaper enough to be worth using, and doubly so with volumes about to go through the roof bringing China GF3 online AND starting to work on Model Y production.

Agree that building 1 motor to start made more sense in their production hell and refining the cost of parts for scaling requirement can make sense.

A birdie told me the 980 and 990 had something different, different part inside, but refused to elaborate. Grr. Where are all those folks that disassemble stuff when we need them..

 

[Sutton 3P]

This is a post from the model 3 motor catalog, helpful information.

dennistdk, Tuesday at 1:23 PM
I posted this in another thread

What is your source for this? The link you included doesn’t go anywhere. It seems highly unlikely that this is accurate for the AWD models, so it would be interesting to know how you’re coming up with this.

 

[dennistdk]

What is your source for this? The link you included doesn’t go anywhere. It seems highly unlikely that this is accurate for the AWD models, so it would be interesting to know how you’re coming up with this.

What do you mean - what is unlikely? The numbers are from the official EU car registration papers (across several countries). This is the link to my original post: Model 3 Motors on the Tesla Parts Catalog

 

[Sutton 3P]

What do you mean - what is unlikely?

I mean it’s unlikely that Tesla would produce essentially the exact same drivetrains for AWD and P in terms of what they consider an acceptable operational max power (ie using high power capacity components for no reason). So essentially the questions are: ‘what does this EU standard of max power output mean?’ (Is it max theoretically possible but could lead to damage, is it for the motor only and assuming the power could be delivered, etc) and ‘what is the source of this info’.

 

[dennistdk]

I mean it’s unlikely that Tesla would produce essentially the exact same drivetrains for AWD and P in terms of what they consider an acceptable operational max power (ie using high power capacity components for no reason). So essentially the questions are: ‘what does this EU standard of max power output mean?’ (Is it max theoretically possible but could lead to damage, is it for the motor only and assuming the power could be delivered, etc) and ‘what is the source of this info’.

On EU registration papers the car manufacturer has to precisely state the tested maximum power output of the motors (in some countries the total power, in others for each motor if dual). This number is used for approvals, testing, insurance and other legal things. Normally you would want this number to be as low as possible (the higher it is, the more costly registration fees, tax and insurance will usually be). So if it's that high for an AWD you can be somewhat sure there is a reason for it. Also note that the AWDs are lower than Performance, but not by much.
If you have a VIN you can look this up, an example for a random TM3-AWD would be like this from Norway: Kjøretøyopplysninger | Statens vegvesen (fold out the section about "Motor/kraftoverføring - power transfer").

 

[holmgang]

I mean it’s unlikely that Tesla would produce essentially the exact same drivetrains for AWD and P in terms of what they consider an acceptable operational max power (ie using high power capacity components for no reason). So essentially the questions are: ‘what does this EU standard of max power output mean?’ (Is it max theoretically possible but could lead to damage, is it for the motor only and assuming the power could be delivered, etc) and ‘what is the source of this info’.

There's a few questions in there

Where do the numbers come from?
Certificate of conformance. These are "official" numbers as claimed to government, therefore they are not arbitrary nor speculated. They are for all intents and purposes the marketed and guaranteed performance. e.g. If you buy a 200hp Skoda or 300hp BMW or a 400hp Porsche, those are the numbers that goes on the CoC.

What do the numbers actually mean?
I dont know the exact testing methodology or legal definition (its buried in the EU directive text somewhere), but it is what you see is what you get.

Is it likely Tesla produces the exact same parts but actually run it at different spec?
Very, very likely, especially for a company that is starting relatively fresh, with new products, and is production-constrained. Even traditional car companies do it all the time. Same essential core parts e.g. most of motor, but with artificially low spec by mechanical means (substituting a few cheaper parts) or especially by software means in the turbo era.

It's cheaper to develop 1 motor than 2. And price them to hit target markets. It's a bean counter's world -- engineers just live in it.

 

[Sutton 3P]

They are for all intents and purposes the marketed and guaranteed performance.

Clearly that is not the case for AWD model 3. I would think the most likely explanation is an anachronism of the European certification. Regulation moves slow there and this may just be a case of blinding quoting the theoretical output of the motor, etc. Something is off, as the quoted output is much higher than what the car actually produces.

 

[dennistdk]

Clearly that is not the case for AWD model 3. I would think the most likely explanation is an anachronism of the European certification. Regulation moves slow there and this may just be a case of blinding quoting the theoretical output of the motor, etc. Something is off, as the quoted output is much higher than what the car actually produces.

Yes, that is the whole point (more or less). It produces less now than it actually can (and according to this then all AWDs can easily produce 350kW, but now produce around the measured 287kW-290kW due to software limits). The Performance can produce 360kW, but potentially 380kW if you look at the LR-RWD. As far as I remember it is actually legal to modify your car in EU to go above the registered power output (can’t remember how much, think it’s 10-15%, but might be different from country to country as rules are different in regards to modifications).

Anyways, in Europe a few AWDs have gotten the so-called AWD20 update that adds 20% more power. That “coincidentally” exactly fits with the max. 350kW that the AWDs registered at. This updated is not a “performance” upgrade to P3D-/Stealth/Sleeper, as it doesn’t have track mode, red line, sports mode etc., but just more power so it actually matches the official registered maximum. The one we have tested has had 0-100km/h (km, not miles) at 3.6s (and the actual Performance model is officially at 3.4s, but typically at 3.5s if you look at YouTube videos).

 

[holmgang]

Clearly that is not the case for AWD model 3. I would think the most likely explanation is an anachronism of the European certification. Regulation moves slow there and this may just be a case of blinding quoting the theoretical output of the motor, etc. Something is off, as the quoted output is much higher than what the car actually produces.

Some manufacturers are known to be more conservative and some more optimistic in the specs vs actual performance. But there has to be a basis for it, and it has to be performance as delivered to customer, rather than some purely fictitious values.

(Unless, of course, you are Volkswagen and submitting emissions information).

I don't think there's anything off with the AWD numbers, if you use the Performance trim as a reference. They have similar performance at speeds and up top.

The 0-60 accel are more dissimilar, but that's an issue of engine programming uncorking more torque lower in the rev band. Similar (albeit not same) torque higher in the rev range means similar peak horsepower. And being a single-gear vehicle means direct rpm vs speed mapping.

 

[GateFather]

Stealth P reflash option/upgrade is supposedly coming soon for those who will want it (and who own at least earlier aka <Jan 2019, LR AWDs). It will supposedly be fairly inexpensive... ~2-3K USD.

I did not hear this from a number of SC and Mobile techs, who do not fairly routinely apply it today and were completely unfamiliar with the matter.

Was coming soon the most detailed info they would give on timeline? In Tesla world, coming soon could be Q2-Q3 of 2020. Or is you’re thinking that this is an imminent thing being released potentially as a year end push. Given that Q3 is done in a week, I doubt we will see this until end of the year at the earliest if they need a supplemental stream of cash towards year-end

 

[Scott7]

I mean it’s unlikely that Tesla would produce essentially the exact same drivetrains for AWD and P in terms of what they consider an acceptable operational max power (ie using high power capacity components for no reason).

I think this is very likely (almost certain!) given the info we know, what Tesla/Musk has officially stated about the motors being identical, and most importantly the fact that cars delivered as AWD have been upgraded to P software in the field.

At least for cars produced earlier than 2019. The 990 motors throw a wrench in the works.

 

[Sutton 3P]

But there has to be a basis for it, and it has to be performance as delivered to customer, rather than some purely fictitious values.

We know for sure it is not the 'performance as delivered', as the performance as delivered for the AWD is 20% lower.

It produces less now than it actually can (and according to this then all AWDs can easily produce 350kW, but now produce around the measured 287kW-290kW due to software limits). The Performance can produce 360kW, but potentially 380kW if you look at the LR-RWD.

It's not at all clear that this spec means the AWD 'can easily produce 350kW'. Further confounding this strange rating is the fact that the P should be able to output more than it's rated 360kW. I would personally not read anything into this until we have some clarity on what these rating actually mean.

For the cars that were software upgraded to 20% more power, I would wonder if these are 980 motors (the early P rejects, assuming binning is a real thing)? Has this been done with 990 motor variants?

 

[holmgang]

We know for sure it is not the 'performance as delivered', as the performance as delivered for the AWD is 20% lower.

By what metric exactly? Top speed? Quarter mile? Or actual Dyno testing?

 

[dave999z]

Stealth P reflash option/upgrade is supposedly coming soon for those who will want it (and who own at least earlier aka <Jan 2019, LR AWDs). It will supposedly be fairly inexpensive... ~2-3K USD.

I did not hear this from a number of SC and Mobile techs, who do not fairly routinely apply it today and were completely unfamiliar with the matter.

Can't tell if you're joking or deliberately unclear. But... you know this how?

 

[mreynolds767]

Stealth P reflash option/upgrade is supposedly coming soon for those who will want it (and who own at least earlier aka <Jan 2019, LR AWDs). It will supposedly be fairly inexpensive... ~2-3K USD.

I did not hear this from a number of SC and Mobile techs, who do not fairly routinely apply it today and were completely unfamiliar with the matter.

Not sure this would be a financial smart decision so I don’t see it happening unless all AWD can accept the option.
Price wise $2k does not make sense since they charge that at delivery. Like FSD there will be a post delivery premium, so $3k makes sense if it ever happens and works for all AWD.

Stock Market cares more about new cars delivered than it does more cash flow and Tesla cares more about the stock market than cash.
This would give them cash flow but hurt new car sales. Would help the 2018 used market which is good for awd owners but not for Tesla as some may opt to buy a used one on the secondary market instead of a new one from Tesla if what you say is going to happen actually happens.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

You guys have beaten this horse to death, run a DNA test on all other existing horses in the world, beaten to death any horse related to the first one, interviewed various veterinarians and trainers, beaten them to death, burned the corpses of all involved, and urinated on the ashes to put them out.

Let this thread DIE until someone at Tesla says something, FFS.