Free supercharging vs Full self driving (POLL)

[Krash]

The real "unicorn". Anyone know what the how many were sold during the date range for a 3 with FUSC? Wonder how many are left? Probably close to none.

What do you mean by “left”, still driven by the original owner?

 

[mswlogo]

Since the question was VALUE, not how many dollars did you save I still come down on the side of FSD. You may not think it's replacing your chauffeur, but it IS still a second set of eyes on your driving. I feel a LOT more confident having the car keep the frick away from sus cars and windblown trucks as I scoot down the highway. Sure the safety modes of the car are fine, but I would MUCH prefer that it come slowly to a stop at a sign that I didn't notice than have it scream at me to frickin' stop already.

There is value in that.

Sure you can save some dollars on charging for free, but those cars that have that feature also charge really slow (mostly). So you are DOOMING yourself to slow charging even when you are in a hurry and just wanna make it to the basketball game in Colorado on time. If you have the time, hit up one of those slow CCS chargers that are free or cheaper than Supercharging, but when you need it you have 250kW speed to get to your destination in a hurry.

FSD doesn’t really apply to Highway.

Most of us have AutoPilot (basically “lane keep”) that came with the car. And AutoPilot does what you describe. Basic AutoPilot doesn’t change lanes automatically but it will move out of the way of a drift truck or slow down or alarm you. Navigate On AutoPilot (comes with FSD) doesn’t do much more safety wise.

But I agree I feel safer in AutoPilot than not.

There is ONE feature that is sort of part of “AutoPilot” that is available with EAP. That is the change lane with the blinker. That acts just like a blind spot monitor, even better. That does have value.

FSD (city streets) (what cost $15K to beta test right now) requires more effort to watch it than just turning it off.

 

[zmarko]

What do you mean by “left”, still driven by the original owner?

Yes, how many were sold by Tesla during that small window, and how many of those owners still have them.

 

[Krash]

If I had to estimate it, I would take the number of model 3s sold in the quarter, divide by the percent of the time that the promotion was available (3/12?), and then multiply by three on the low end and five on the high-end, and then figure that 65% of those folks still own those cars.

 

[whitex]

There is ONE feature that is sort of part of “AutoPilot” that is available with EAP. That is the change lane with the blinker. That acts just like a blind spot monitor, even better. That does have value.

If you hit anyone using this feature, it's your fault, not Tesla. I am just making sure you are not assuming this feature is full proof. Personally, I will take a radar + camera based blind spot monitor, over auto-lane change on a Tesla.

 

[derotam]

My vote is for Free Unlimited Supercharging.

At least it has not tried to kill me.

Yet.

It has not tried to kill you YET... If Tesla ever puts out their snake charger, watch out!

 

[BobDolesGhost]

As for FSD, Tesla wants every Tesla vehicle to be autonomous. He/they want everyone's cars to be robotaxis. Pretty soon (IMO) all Teslas are going to come from the factory with FSD because Musk envisions cars driving people everywhere. The FSD price will absolutely have to come down for this to be even remotely feasible

Not how the robotaxi fleet will work I think. All Teslas with the hardware required of FSD can have FSD SW pushed to them, whether you bought it or not. Very likely in the future, all Teslas will have FSD installed, but it will be crippled based on what you paid for. Vanilla AP will be FSD with no lane chanes, no stop light recognition, no auto park, etc. It makes little sense for Tesla's software to be drastically different for AP/EAP/FSD. One common code base is much easier to maintain

Regarding the robotaxi scheme, while your out and about driving, your ADAS level will be whatever you paid for (AP/EAP/FSD). When you get to where you're going(home or work likely), you can go in the Tesla app and say "here have my Tesla for 'X' amount of time and I need it back at 'X'-o-clock. Maybe also I need 'x' miles in the battery on return too. The car goes out and makes you and Tesla money in that timespan running robotaxi FSD software. Money split largely in Tesla's favor I'm sure . Upon return, your car goes back to whatever feature set you paid for

And I took FSD over free SC. I so rarely SC that it wouldn't help much. And to use free SC to fullest would be very hard on the battery. I don't think I'd want to do the SC like crazy, battery dies, replace, repeat scheme from earlier in the thread here

 

[mswlogo]

If you hit anyone using this feature, it's your fault, not Tesla. I am just making sure you are not assuming this feature is full proof. Personally, I will take a radar + camera based blind spot monitor, over auto-lane change on a Tesla.

Of course it’s your fault. No difference than if Radar based blind spot failed you.

If I had a choice. I’d choose the auto-lane change. It has more context, more eyes, can handle way more situations and can take action. Do I wish it had Radar too, sure. But it doesn’t.

Like let’s say you’re looking in side view mirrors and something happens in front. Auto-lane is watching 5-6 directions simultaneously as you switch lanes. Typical blind spot is looking at two (maybe 3, with camera/ radar straight forward).

But auto-lane change is looking at lanes your switching to, in front and in back.

 

[zoomer0056]

What insight and conclusions can be had from this poll so far?

 

[derotam]

What insight and conclusions can be had from this poll so far?

71 people so far have voted.

That's about it for conclusions.

 

[TwistedGray]

What insight and conclusions can be had from this poll so far?

So far, it is a 60 / 40 split in favor of free supercharging over FSD

 

[whitex]

Of course it’s your fault. No difference than if Radar based blind spot failed you.

If I had a choice. I’d choose the auto-lane change. It has more context, more eyes, can handle way more situations and can take action. Do I wish it had Radar too, sure. But it doesn’t.

Like let’s say you’re looking in side view mirrors and something happens in front. Auto-lane is watching 5-6 directions simultaneously as you switch lanes. Typical blind spot is looking at two (maybe 3, with camera/ radar straight forward).

But auto-lane change is looking at lanes your switching to, in front and in back.

I recently got another car, not a Tesla, which uses both radar and cameras for blind spot monitoring. It even considers the speed at which the car in the adjacent lane is moving, so that if I'm passing a car warning disappears much quicker than if they are going faster than me). The blind spot warning is in the side mirror, so when I'm looking at it, I am also monitoring the front of the car. Works very well. For a decade I drove with the rear camera on the top of the screen of all my Model S'es (except when Tesla removed that option for a bit because Elon argued it was not needed) - the primary purpose of having the backup camera on while driving forward was blind spot checks. I had auto-lane change, never used it, as the few times I did try it made me distrust it (like trying to squeeze the Mode S under a truck trailer). It took a little getting used to using the blind spot monitor in the mirror vs. looking at the camera in the center, but I actually prefer it now.

 

[mswlogo]

I recently got another car, not a Tesla, which uses both radar and cameras for blind spot monitoring. It even considers the speed at which the car in the adjacent lane is moving, so that if I'm passing a car warning disappears much quicker than if they are going faster than me). The blind spot warning is in the side mirror, so when I'm looking at it, I am also monitoring the front of the car. Works very well. For a decade I drove with the rear camera on the top of the screen of all my Model S'es (except when Tesla removed that option for a bit because Elon argued it was not needed) - the primary purpose of having the backup camera on while driving forward was blind spot checks. I had auto-lane change, never used it, as the few times I did try it made me distrust it (like trying to squeeze the Mode S under a truck trailer). It took a little getting used to using the blind spot monitor in the mirror vs. looking at the camera in the center, but I actually prefer it now.

I don’t even look at the screen. I look at the side view mirror and rear view mirror. And glance around, while auto-pilot scans all 5 cameras closely. And feel quite comfortable and it has potentially saved me. I’m quite familiar with typical blind spot and with auto-lane switch prefer it. Ridiculously expensive, but it works. That’s partly how I justified in my head for paying for it

 

[whitex]

I don’t even look at the screen. I look at the side view mirror and rear view mirror. And glance around, while auto-pilot scans all 5 cameras closely. And feel quit comfortable and it has potentially saved me. I’m quite familiar with typical blind spot and with auto-lane switch prefer it. Ridiculously expensive, but it works. That’s partly how I justified in my head for paying for it

To be fair, my auto-lane change only had only front camera and USS parking sensors (for parking speeds) to scan, no rear facing cameras connected to AP1. That said, my wife has AP2.5, and I enable it from time to time when I drive it (my wife keeps if disabled), and it really doesn't feel me with much confidence - last I drove it it was still not as good for lane keeping on the highway than AP1 was. Sure, it's an extra layer of safety, since the car will warn if you try to change lanes into a car it knows of, but that does not require paying for FSD.

PS> Which are the 5 cameras used for a lane change in your car? AP4 perhaps with 3 front cameras?

 

[mswlogo]

To be fair, my auto-lane change only had only front camera and USS parking sensors (for parking speeds) to scan, no rear facing cameras connected to AP1. That said, my wife has AP2.5, and I enable it from time to time when I drive it (my wife keeps if disabled), and it really doesn't feel me with much confidence - last I drove it it was still not as good for lane keeping on the highway than AP1 was. Sure, it's an extra layer of safety, since the car will warn if you try to change lanes into a car it knows of, but that does not require paying for FSD.

PS> Which are the 5 cameras used for a lane change in your car? AP4 perhaps with 3 front cameras?

If you flip the blinker the car changes lane while on AutoPilot. That requires FSD or EAP to have the car steer into another lane on its own (initiated by the blinker). Obviously you don’t have that feature so probably shouldn’t be commenting on it. If you did, you’d have a free upgrade to AP3.0

It uses primarily the rear and side facing cameras on the side you’re moving to while changing lanes as well as front. Simultaneously if something approached you on the other side (especially if it had to abort) it’s watching the other side as well.

Maybe you should get your AP2.5 looked at or upgraded. I’ve had one AP2.5 (due for free upgrade but traded before available) and two AP3 and they all work great at lane keeping (and changing) and all had FSD.

And for the record when I occasionally use NoA (you probably don’t know what that even is) I set it to require confirmation lane change. Also keep everything on most chill settings. Not a fan of NoA or city streets beta FSD.

But the change lane with blinker is nice, and has significant value. It is the main reason why I did purchase FSD (3 times, last time was $10K) I think of it as it’s changing lane and the human is backup. If I bought today I’d probably buy EAP.

 

[srs5694]

My opinion of FSD has been dropping since I bought the car. First that was because of delays and unmet promises for delivery. Over the past year+, when I've actually had the beta, it's because the feature doesn't work nearly as well as Tesla (and Tesla's boosters) claim. Yesterday I got the unified stack and it removed functionality, which pissed me off. My estimate of the value of FSD today, in dollars, is negative, whereas free Supercharging of course has positive value.

Note that I'm interpreting "Full Self Driving" in the poll as referring specifically to that functionality, not the functionality in Autopilot or Enhanced Autopilot, which are currently offered in separate packages (or standard, in the case of basic Autopilot).

 

[TwistedGray]

Bump for those who haven't answered the poll

 

[cpa]

Just a couple thoughts:

A lot of owners live in condos or apartments or rental homes that don't have L2 charging at home. So, they utilize their local Supercharger to fill up once or twice per week, perhaps augmenting those sessions with L1 charging overnight. You will notice that Superchargers in urban areas have a tiered pricing structure, so an early bird can grab electrons for less than 20¢/kWh as compared with "peak" times with rates in California around 45¢. If they are primarily commuting in their Tesla, FSD (confession: I don't have it and I don't know how it works) probably is not much help during rush hour or running errands on city streets. (If I am wrong about this, be gentle; I am totally ignorant.)

For extended road trips, it is nice to be able to exclude fuel costs for the trip. This may allow a family to stay in a nicer facility at their destination, or perhaps stay an extra day at a pricey resort, or take a couple of side trips to attractions or points of interest.

In our dinosaur 2014 S85, I average about 280 watt-hours per mile. A 1,500-mile road trip would use about 420 kWh of juice. If we ignore the possibility of destination charging, and if we assume an average cost of 40¢/kWh, that trip would cost $168. (I think my math is right.) In our 2018 Model 3 my average usage is closer to 240 wh/mile, so that same trip would cost ~$144.

I think it would boil down to comparing the additional up-front cost of FSD, the extent and/or frequency of utilizing this ability, and then comparing it to the dollar savings for availing oneself of FUSC during an average year's ownership.

 

[Mark II]

I voted for FSD. Why? Well we have two cars, 2018 with FUSC and 2022 with yoke. The yoke is terrible for city driving, but great for long distance freeway driving. So even though we have FUSC on the 2018, we take the 2022 for long distance. In short, the 2018, with FUSC, has not seen a super charger in a long time

Perhaps if I commuted long distance daily, directly past an empty super charger, I would change my mind. However the convenience of having an always fill "tank" every morning beats free charging and the extra wait. Time is money ...

 

[whitex]

If you flip the blinker the car changes lane while on AutoPilot. That requires FSD or EAP to have the car steer into another lane on its own (initiated by the blinker). Obviously you don’t have that feature so probably shouldn’t be commenting on it. If you did, you’d have a free upgrade to AP3.0

Actually had it (still have it) on both AP1 (AP) and AP2.5 (EAP). Would never trust either one of those to change lanes - with AP1 tried it once when next to a tractor-trailer, it would have plowed right into it had I not stopped it. Never specifically tried the same setup on AP2.5, but just playing around driving on AP and watching what the car perceives around it, I found it was not 100% accurate and it did miss objects. So I still maintain that it's a nice to have extra layer of safety (for warnings, not AP), but you cannot trust it, even if it only screws up 1% of the time.

Maybe you should get your AP2.5 looked at or upgraded. I’ve had one AP2.5 (due for free upgrade but traded before available) and two AP3 and they all work great at lane keeping (and changing) and all had FSD.

I don't care enough. Every service/upgrade is a possibility of something getting messed up, and the car is out of warranty. AP3 upgrade wouldn't upgrade cameras anyways, so the car would end up some hybrid of 2.5 and 3, which is not likely high on Tesla radar to test with, given they have AP4 now. Last but not least, I don't believe this car will ever do FSD as it was advertised at the time I bought it (you know, drive me, my family and friends all by itself BS, and make me money while driving for Tesla ridesharing service). I actually believe in Google's conclusion of "Robot cars can't count of humans in case of emergencies", which paradoxically states that the better the system the more dangerous it is, until it hits the hits the 99.999%+. A car which only tries to kill you once a year, but the rest of the time does not require any intervention from you to drive is most dangerous.

And for the record when I occasionally use NoA (you probably don’t know what that even is) I set it to require confirmation lane change. Also keep everything on most chill settings. Not a fan of NoA or city streets beta FSD.

Have it (part of 2018 EAP), never use it. Given its lackluster highway performance, I am not tempted to unleash it on city streets.

But the change lane with blinker is nice, and has significant value. It is the main reason why I did purchase FSD (3 times, last time was $10K) I think of it as it’s changing lane and the human is backup. If I bought today I’d probably buy EAP.

For safety , the warning which comes for free is nice to have, not as good as radar+camera based in the mirror system, but it's free. If I was buying another Tesla again, I would not pay for EAP nor FSD, unless the come with some material guarantees, like "we'll give you 100% money back for the whole car if by INSERT_DATE_HERE the car is not able to be summoned unattended within battery range from anywhere to anywhere on public streets, while Tesla assumes all liability for any accidents caused by the car". Then I'd pay for FSD. I would even do it if Tesla simply extended bumper to bumper warranty until 6 months after FSD lived up to the full Level 5 autonomy (I asked the sales people for that the last two times they tried to sell me FSD, I told them I want to at least enjoy it for 6 months, they say no way).