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From TM Forum "Winner From North America For First Referral Program Turned Down P90D"

Discussion in 'Model S: Ordering, Production, Delivery' started by lolachampcar, Dec 15, 2015.

  1. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    #1 lolachampcar, Dec 15, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2015
    Removed by original poster

    Mods,
    Please feel free to remove any of my content in this thread or the thread all together if you choose.
     
  2. fiksegts

    fiksegts Active Member

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    so the end result was a cost of $30k to move from a used 70D to a brand new P90DL with value of $150k? does the offer then move down to the next person?
     
  3. HankLloydRight

    HankLloydRight Fluxing

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    That's not the point. The point is, after selling 96 cars for Tesla and NOT qualifying for the $1000 referral bonus for each (totally $96k!!), Tesla could have paid the taxes for him, to make it totally cost free to the winner. $30k is a drop in the bucket for a company like Tesla, but it's the idiotic middle management that just doesn't see the big picture to just "do the right thing".

    Thanks for cross-posting this lolchampcar -- I never would have seen it on the god-awful TM forums.
     
  4. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    They do it for him ... and then do they do it for each of the winners of the discounted Founders? (Difference between the price we pay and the full cost appears to be taxable.) What about Powerwall winners?

    I guarantee if they paid taxes for one person, then others would be on the forum complaining that it should have been done for them also & it isn't fair.

    I can understand the dismay at thinking you won a great upgrade, only to find out that Uncle Sam wants their share. But as someone pointed out on the TM forums, if you win a prize on Price is Right, you pay taxes. (And this is why Pollux' Perfect Tesla Raffle is such a great deal - they INCLUDED 'payment of taxes' as part of the prize. If they hadn't specified that upfront, then the obvious assumption is winner is responsible for taxes, just as with any other contest.)

    Not going to disagree that things weren't well thought out for the referral program - I don't even have a Model S, so the swap part would have been difficult. And while VA & OH owners can claim they had no advantage, they clearly did. All you have to do is look at the list of winners to see. I personally had referrals pick up a referral code from an owner in one of those states, after doing the work, because they wanted to save $2k (and I don't blame them a bit). It wasn't a level playing field. But it's unfair, imo, to be angry at Tesla over the tax code.
     
  5. HankLloydRight

    HankLloydRight Fluxing

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    Tesla could have easily valued his "trade-in" at a much higher value to minimize the tax burden. They could have discounted the value of the P90DL too, say selling it at a wholesale price.

    There are *lots* of things Tesla could do here for all the winners (which really don't add up to much in additional taxes).

    It's not just the tax code. It's how management handles special cases like this. Which is usually poorly.

    If they quietly and quickly said 'sure, we'll take care of that for you', you'd have one very happy customer, and nobody would know there was any problem to begin with.
     
  6. andrewket

    andrewket 2014 S P85DL, 2016 X P90DL (soon 100)

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    #6 andrewket, Dec 15, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2015
    From TM Forum "Winner From North America For First Referral Program Turned Do...

    I am under the impression that there are no additional taxes due for the founder's cars. They are not discounted. It's a limited edition car not available to the public. It's standard price is 115.5k. Tax should be due on that amount, and that's it. We won "the right to purchase".
     
  7. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    HLR,
    You hit the very crux of this issue for me and I'm a big Tesla fan. Tesla is "playing" at business. For the big picture things, they put a lot of thought into making sure they do the right thing and appear to be doing the right thing. When it comes to the little things of day to day operations, they have a completely different attitude. It is this other attitude that is going to bite them in the rear if they let it continue.

    As you point out, all Tesla has to do is over value the trade and ask the customer not to share this information with other customers as it is apparent that this is a special case worthy of special attention. Problem solved and everyone is happy. What you do not want to do is underbid average wholesale on your trade in offer to this "winner". It is like advertising a car with 691 horsepower where the battery limits power to 463 horsepower. It is simply stupid.
     
  8. dirkhh

    dirkhh Middle-aged Member

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    This is simply amateur hour all over again. They have grown too fast, too quickly. They have a CEO who's spending half of his time micromanaging random parts of the business, and the rest of his time on running his other businesses. There is a serious lack of adult supervision. And because they have no actual competition they are continuing to get away with it.
    The story of the prizes is a very sad one. Congrats to the winners, especially the ones who don't need to care if winning the price costs them multiple ten thousand dollars.
     
  9. Krugerrand

    Krugerrand Active Member

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    Oh, please. It would get out, rest assured.
     
  10. HankLloydRight

    HankLloydRight Fluxing

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    Only if the winner disclosed it. And even if so, so what? All the other prizes (powerwalls) are quite small in comparison, and the rules do say the winner is responsible for taxes. The P90DL upgrade prize was advertised as a "swap". What he was offered was not a swap.
     
  11. No2DinosaurFuel

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    Look i totally agree with a lot of you guys here on the forum about tesla should right this by over valueing the trade in and such and whatever hacks to get this guy his car for cheaper.

    But I dont think tesla did anything wrong. Tesla have the right to do more if the wish. Remember they never stipulated they would pay the taxes on the rewards for the referrers. Sure this guy is a big proponent for tesla and got them a lot of sales, but so did the next guy or other people. Shouldnt they be rewarded too? At least somewhat? Maybe a partial refund? Point is he got his rewards, but they come with taxes just like everything else. Pay them and problem solved.
     
  12. Krugerrand

    Krugerrand Active Member

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    And the other winners. And someone would (disclose). You can't hide a new car from your family, friends and co-workers, nor the details (particularly eg., a spouse). And while some people don't mind skirting a question, others have a hard time doing so or worse, lying. And so what? Bonnie explained why.

    Point being, the whole 'we'll do this just for you (and you and you and you) so keep it under your hat' is naïve. The winner couldn't even keep his disappointment that he has to pay taxes on the win difference to himself. People have big mouths (and happy typing fingers) and like to share their good fortune as much as their bad fortune.

    I purposely was not addressing nor discussing whether I thought it was a swap or not. I was addressing the weak argument that an exception could be made and kept quiet.
     
  13. HankLloydRight

    HankLloydRight Fluxing

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    But if it were a swap, and Tesla was creative enough to structure it like a swap (which really isn't that hard), we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.
     
  14. AudubonB

    AudubonB Mild-mannered Moderator Lord Vetinari*

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    How does this story affect others in their efforts to promote Tesla autos? Does it increase your desire to recommend one? Decrease it? Do you say "why bother"?

    If it does any of the latter two, then Tesla has lost, and potentially lost big, with this mal-handed situation. And that makes me​ angry.....
     
  15. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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    I hope they write him a nice letter in Tesla font that says "Thank you" 96 times. He must have worked pretty hard to create 96 referrals.
     
  16. HankLloydRight

    HankLloydRight Fluxing

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    Especially when he knew he was getting $0 per referral.
     
  17. jaguar36

    jaguar36 Member

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    How does one even generate 96 referalls? Was this guy hanging around a Tesla sales gallery all day?
     
  18. mdevp

    mdevp Member

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    Yeah, they could've paid way more for this 70D to defray his costs. Very, very disappointing on the part of Tesla. Just hope they make this right.
     
  19. freeewilly

    freeewilly Member

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    "But today, my DSM told me that HQ says this is not how the transaction works. Now I'm told that I swap my 70D for the P90DL, but I'm responsible for the $79K) difference between the new car (+ taxes/fees) and the trade-in value of my old car. This comes out to be roughly $30K in federal/state income tax."

    I don't think you guys read it correctly. It's more than tax, Tesla is asking him to pay for the difference of the swap PLUS tax. Let's say his P90D worth 130,000, the tax should be less than 13,000.
     
  20. mdevp

    mdevp Member

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    Its the fed/state income tax on the 79k difference.
     

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