I thought there was something people applied for where you got FSD features early and you were sort of an FSD beta tester? Am I just imagining that? I recall something pretty selective based on driving and you could get kicked out...?
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FSD beta strikes
- Thread starter Jacob Lamczyk
- Start date
The key thing to remember is FSD is not FSDbeta.
FSD is a fairly limited set of driver assist programs, basically just Enhanced AutoPilot (parts of which are still beta versions but pretty stable) plus some party tricks (which those newer owners without the Ultra Sonic Sensors don't have and were promised the equivalent party tricks via Teslavision but that has yet to happen.)
FSDbeta was released well over a year ago and originally those who wished to be in the program had to prove they were attentive drivers by spending X amount of time having their driving habits analyzed by tesla. That requirement has ended and the software has progressed to a version that allows anyone who has the appropriate FSD-hardware on their vehicle to subscribe and use FSDbeta without testing to see if they are 'good enough' to be considered a beta tester driver.
FSDbeta is the EAP on steroids that includes the ability to 'safely' use it on city streets but not in any way that could be described as full self driving. You are still required to be driving paying attention to the road and with hands on the wheel. There was a strikeout provision to reprimand drivers who didn't follow the rules. That enforcement eventually added in using the in-car camera to determine driver attentiveness. Now that has been expanded to AP driving as well.
(I see from other posts you have had problems in AP with the latest version of your car recognizing you are meeting those requirements after years of driving in AP successfully.)
Currently (I believe still, as of Jan 2024) it uses a different code than the EAP for highway driving. So if you set your car on AP and drive on the highway, you'll find less robust (but still pretty darn good) behaviour compared to FSDb on the same highway. I have two profiles on my car and can switch back and forth to compare the two on the same road. I don't use FSDbeta on streets but I prefer it to EAP on the highway (but I only use it for lane keeping and TACC, I don't Navigate on Autopilot nor in FSDbeta have the car fully drive so I choose which exits to use, etc, from highways and thus avoid the lane changing nonsense that FSDbeta often exhibits.) For that 'small' subset of features, FSDbeta is smoother and, of course, the visualization on the screen is far more detailed.
The "single stack" that some owners are waiting for is when there is a single version of code for both AP and FSDbeta. While the AP now has the same strike features that FSDbeta drivers face, I don't believe the lane keeping and lane changing code is the same for AP and FSDbeta. If that single stack arrived in the latest update, I will stand corrected. I'm still running older updates while I await tesla to force the latest updates (and updates to those updates) to me over LTE. That hasn't happened yet, so my current version of software is what was released back in November. That didn't take us to 'single stack.'
The single stack I refer to is for the driver assist features only. Those early FSDbeta testers were enrolled into a different update stream and thus didn't get the UI improvements until months after those were made available to non-FSDbeta cars. Those who weren't part of that early FSDbeta stream still had access to FSDbeta when they subscribed, but the version their cars had was an older version than those in the FSDbeta stream.
So for a while there were two streams of cars, those with the latest UI but delayed FSDbeta, and those with the leading edge of FSDbeta but missing UI improvement such as larger font on the screen. With the latest holiday updates, all of us now have the same UI and FSDbeta versions (except for a few older vehicles with AP2 hardware, according to teslafi.) but I do not believe that this version has launched the 'single stack' code for AP and FSDbeta. For driver attentiveness, the two share the same features, but I haven't seen anything that definitive announce they 100% share the same code.
There was a period, about 18 months ago when the FSD beta first came out. If you had a Safety Score of 100%, then you were eligible for the lottery to get the FSD Beta. My wife got it a little before my car got it. They slowly added more people and then eventually near Christmas 2022, opened it up to everyone.
My dates could be a year later than it was. Time passing too fast.
So when the car was making the turns, stopping at lights, even passing a truck stopped on the road on my way to lunch, that can't be described as Full Sefl Driving. Sure, I was watching, but I only watched.
That is correct. That cannot be described as Full Self Driving.
Full self driving does not require anyone behind the wheel. And example of full self driving is Waymo.
Or in my use-case, I could send the car to my daughter's so she could use it when she needs a vehicle. I wouldn't have take the time from my day to drive it over to her and then bring it home. (When I bought my car with FSD, I honestly wondered if I would be able to do this as I had only been exposed to AV optimists who maintained AV tech was a year or two away. I didn't expect to be able to, but the thought crossed my mind.)
It absolutely can be described as Full Self-Driving, but it is only FSD Beta.
So you define Full Self Driving as a driver holding the wheel and ready to take over at any moment. Got it.
I assume you are happy with your tesla 'Full Self Driving' since it matches tesla who says "The currently enabled Autopilot, Enhanced Autopilot and Full Self-Driving features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous" There is no promise in official tesla documentation saying that we'll ever be delivered software that allows us to drive the car without full focus (hands and eyes) on the road ahead.
I define Full Self Driving as what Waymo currently does 'in the wild' (but currently limited locations.) I define what tesla promises (and currently delivers as beta software) as very limited driver assist features. Had I done proper research and not understood that tesla had a social media force pushing a false narrative of what I was buying, I would not have paid $$$$$ for FSD. Worse, in their current beta form these driver assist features work, on a good day, only as well as tesla's beta auto windshield wipers and currently are moving further away from autonomy as the car requires more and more active supervision even in non-FSDbeta modes.
I've completely given up hope my car, before its end of life, will receive updates (beta or not) that will approach the ability to have the car 'drive' while I'm searching out a local radio station while on a road trip, or handing a juice box to a child in car seat behind me, eating (safely) while I drive, or picking up my phone to see if the text from my daughter is a current one, or one thrown up in error by the system. The ability to do those small actions is nowhere near what Full Self Driving means to me, or what I thought I was buying. Those actions still have me at the wheel prepared to take over if the car asks me to take over. But that is the low bar I suspect tesla will struggle to meet. Never will tesla meet my Full Self Driving expectations formed by the false statements by the CEO, faked videos released by the company, credulous reporting in the media supporting tesla's false narrative, and the deluge of fan boy posts that overwhelmed forums (until the Model Y became the best selling vehicle in the world and the voices of those who discovered they have been ripped off finally balanced out the fan boys.)
You are really missing my point. No, it is not FSD. It is FSD beta which indeed requires monitoring.
BUT, If I get in my car and it takes me to the restaurant and I never make a turn, I never touch the accelerator, what it is doing the driving? I'm certainly not. The car is fully self driving.
And hence my emphasis on IT CAN BE DESCRIBED as FSD, but it isn't.
I'm not doing the driving, I'm just there as a safety driver. Just like Waymo and Cruise did for years.
Nope, we aren't missing each other's points. We just disagree on the definition of full self driving and we each have different view points of tesla and its tech.
You are the optimist, willing to see the progress and hoping/expecting/believing it will come within Elon's "two week"/"end of month" proclamations.
I'm the pessimist, only seeing that Elon has completely underestimated the 'last percentage' progress to make the product actually live up to his description of its capabilities from 5+ years ago, and how he has misled consistently with him naming of products and guidelines on the time until the product will be ready to live up to its name.
You don't care about how long this will take, you are enjoying the journey and being part of this leading edge towards the future of private transportation.
I've learned that the product I bought that was supposed to give me continued transportation independence is not anywhere near being available and I paid $$$$$ for a feature that will never function as I was told it would (not in the manual but by the CEO and popular press and fanboys.) As a result, I'm incredibly bitter..
I'm trying to balance out the unrealistic expectations that many have, to help anyone doing their research into whether or not to buy a tesla. So that they know the true capability of the cars now, and likely for up to a decade to come (based on the number of 'solved' tech from other manufacturers, like TACC and auto wipers) that are beta or behave like beta on a tesla.
Anyone doing research who are like you will likely decide to still buy the car and join the journey.
But at least I can help others avoid the bitter disappointment I have with my vehicle by either avoiding tesla or at least having expectations that were lower than mine.
You are arguing one thing, I'm talking about something completely different. I'm talking semantics here.
All I am saying is that it can be "described" as FSD. Notice emphasis on "Described"
Just because something can be described one way, doesn't mean that it is.
IT IS NOT FSD. It can be described as FSD.
When I purchased FSD over 6 years ago, I knew that it was a big journey. I didn't expect it in a year, or two or three.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
For starters, what is your definition of "full self driving?" Most people refer to the SAE Autonomy levels. Level 2 provides assistance but requires full monitoring and varying degrees of input - technically plain cruise control, TACC/Adaptive cruise and FSDb all fall under this category.
Level 3 requires someone in the driver's seat but they don't need to be paying attention. (i.e. you could be working on your computer, reading a book, etc.) They do need to be available to take over, however.
Level 4 requires does not require someone be available to take over as long as it meets the operational criteria defined by the system.
Level 5 can operate in all conditions and does not need a driver.
All 3 of these could be described as 'full self driving.' if you view the term as synonymous with 'robot taxi' then it would need to be level 4 or level 5.
Personally, I think level 3 would be awesome and I think the majority of people would be happy with this as well.
Level 3 requires someone in the driver's seat but they don't need to be paying attention. (i.e. you could be working on your computer, reading a book, etc.) They do need to be available to take over, however.
Level 4 requires does not require someone be available to take over as long as it meets the operational criteria defined by the system.
Level 5 can operate in all conditions and does not need a driver.
All 3 of these could be described as 'full self driving.' if you view the term as synonymous with 'robot taxi' then it would need to be level 4 or level 5.
Personally, I think level 3 would be awesome and I think the majority of people would be happy with this as well.
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